nycalt
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 548
Loc: Manhattan, NYC
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Not to start any unnecessary paranoia, but a thought occurred to me. How much are we drawing attention to OPs by discussing them here on DB?
Are we, unwittingly, influencing which ones get raided by making it easier for the Feds to find and track down the ones that seem to get the most business/posts on DB?
Those that know me know I am a huge supporter of free speech and not restricting posts here. It is not my intention to suggest that we start doing that. I also dont believe that restricting discussion to certain drugs is the answer as others have suggested.
However, we all know the DEA/FDA monitors this site
Thoughts?
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oldandwise
Member
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 192
Loc: ky
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Quote:
Not to start any unnecessary paranoia, but a thought occurred to me. How much are we drawing attention to OPs by discussing them here on DB?
Are we, unwittingly, influencing which ones get raided by making it easier for the Feds to find and track down the ones that seem to get the most business/posts on DB?
Those that know me know I am a huge supporter of free speech and not restricting posts here. It is not my intention to suggest that we start doing that. I also dont believe that restricting discussion to certain drugs is the answer as others have suggested.
However, we all know the DEA/FDA monitors this site
Thoughts?
Imho it is easy to find these op"s. I am sure the dea can use google..... !!
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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety" Ben Franklin
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TSLTiff
Member
Reged: 03/08/04
Posts: 118
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I would agree, it wouldn't help the DEA, or any agency for that matter to get "valid" information on OP's on a bulletin board. I have no doubts they are checking this out, but I would be willing to be nothing that is said here is going to change the fate of any OP.
Just thought.
S
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hibbs
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/22/03
Posts: 236
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You can bet the FDA/DEA and others use this site and others like this one as a road map straight to the Pharm's/Docs' in question.How's that saying go "loose lips sink ships" or something like that. You get people posting and telling everyone word for word how smooth a no record OP worked for them,. Or others asking "how can I get hydro without records", then 20 replies come after the responce. Not hard to figure out these boards must be monitored by LE and people should keep that in mind when they post such questions. But by the looks of it these problems will all be gone sooner or later if the LE has their way!! Just look at last weeks invasion.
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"Blues are rescue lines that pull you ashore when stranded in the middle of this ocean we call life. Grab ahold and feel em! they will bring you back home." Jimmy D. Lane
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radiometer
Member
Reged: 12/09/03
Posts: 198
Loc: California
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Quote:
Imho it is easy to find these op"s. I am sure the dea can use google..... !!
If Google was all that was required to find legitimate OPs and IOPs, there would be no need for this site. I doubt that LE has much interest in the scammers.
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LumbarSpasm
Silent Chaos
Reged: 05/07/02
Posts: 1538
Loc: USA
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I tend to think that some of our posts might take the leg work out of it for them. JMHO.
It becomes a sour subject with the pros and cons of free information sharing. But it is hard to argue that this site is not comprehensive-it is. And some people posts' contain much information and almost read like exploits.
I think the briefer that statements the better. But speech can not be contained. Someone will get angry, feel wronged, and let loose. Someone else will get happy, feel ecstatic, and share the love.
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LumbarSpasm
Or just a pain in the butt?!
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oldandwise
Member
Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 192
Loc: ky
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Well said !!!!!
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They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety" Ben Franklin
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henry1
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/08/03
Posts: 281
Loc: North Central USA
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Quote:
I tend to think that some of our posts might take the leg work out of it for them. JMHO.
It becomes a sour subject with the pros and cons of free information sharing. But it is hard to argue that this site is not comprehensive-it is. And some people posts' contain much information and almost read like exploits.
I think the briefer that statements the better. But speech can not be contained. Someone will get angry, feel wronged, and let loose. Someone else will get happy, feel ecstatic, and share the love.
Very well said. I believe the less said the better, but I know others feel they should be able to say what they please.
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treading the backward path...
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IMSUSCOT1
Threadhead
Reged: 10/23/02
Posts: 868
Loc: usa
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Yeah, there's lot's of "love sharing" going on here...gotta love it(sorry I couldn't help myself!)
I think we've done our share of educating the lazy man's DEA agent...and since their used to dealing in the totally "illegal" world, initially at least, this must have presented a challenge...I'm w/lumbar...sometimes we can say, "I got it" and let it go at that...less is more & all...
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LumbarSpasm
Silent Chaos
Reged: 05/07/02
Posts: 1538
Loc: USA
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Quote:
Yeah, there's lot's of "love sharing" going on here...gotta love it(sorry I couldn't help myself!)
I think we've done our share of educating the lazy man's DEA agent...and since their used to dealing in the totally "illegal" world, initially at least, this must have presented a challenge...I'm w/lumbar...sometimes we can say, "I got it" and let it go at that...less is more & all...
When you implied that the DEA, being used to clandestine operations in the illegal drugs realm might of found the candid posts here difficult to digest or believe, I about spit out my pop.
When reading your posts, less is more... for the keyboard's life. 
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LumbarSpasm
Or just a pain in the butt?!
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dolock
Newbie
Reged: 02/19/02
Posts: 37
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"It used to be a popular place, but nobody goes there any more because there is to many people" Yogi Bera.
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daisyhess
Journeyman
Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Far, far, far Northern Minneso...
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I have NEVER been much of a believer in Big Brother. I am certain that I would have made a bad Communist. I have serious doubts that LE or the MIB (as 'they' are referred to here) would stoop so low as to lurk on DB or similar sites. 'They', whoever the h_e_l_l they are KNOW who and what they are looking for and I think it is bordering on narcissistic to think that LE looks to this humble site as a source of information that may lead them to a big 'kill'. The truth is that we are just not that interesting.
Oh, I know what I have coming. Many will lambaste me for this post. To that I say..... Provide me with one syllable of PROOF that LE lurks and acquires useful information here.
Peace, Daisy
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A feather out of someone elses arse does not look good in your hat!
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Earl777
Journeyman
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 50
Loc: West
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Agree, and if it was not posted here, it would be posted somewhere else on the web with equal zeal.
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Pain control, psychiatric care, and hospice are REAL issues.
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dman22
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 264
Loc: Everywhere
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IMHO, I think they have they have their hands full just with the illegal drug trade, with the massive quantities of coke/heroin/meth labs, etc flowing within the U.S. and onto our streets. Regardless of the impact, I think prescriptions may be on the lower end of the 'to do' list.
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devildog
Stranger
Reged: 04/12/02
Posts: 16
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I know of several reputable OP's that have had the 'whistle blown' on them by the following two methods;
1) Disgruntled patient/employee; Go to LE and lay out everything for REVENGE. One such incident involved a very nice/caring MD that practiced in two countries. He had a patient that began to abuse. He tried to 'tenderly' divorce himself from this patient and taper him down on the drug. The patient got mad and laid a trap for the MD. If I gave the doc's name - MANY old timers would know him. He still paractices in the other country and I talk to him often. The investigation that followed ruined him professionally in this country and cost him a small fortune.
2) Sometimes patients that have been using/abusing OP's to obtain Rx's for recrrational purposes will go 'clean'. In the process of recovery, they THINK they will help others out and they THINK they are 'whistle-blowing'.... Really they are just screwing the honest people seeking treatment.
I'm sure there are other ways - but I know of a few circumstances where the above led to 'issues' for some really good/decent people.
Just my .02.....
Peace
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caramello51
Board Addict
Reged: 09/28/02
Posts: 311
Loc: Alaska
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Quote:
In the process of recovery, they THINK they will help others out and they THINK they are 'whistle-blowing'....
there is nobody more righteous than a born again anything. i think that's why there are so many anti-smoking laws being passed. so many recent ex-smokers....
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
I have NEVER been much of a believer in Big Brother. I am certain that I would have made a bad Communist. I have serious doubts that LE or the MIB (as 'they' are referred to here) would stoop so low as to lurk on DB or similar sites. 'They', whoever the h_e_l_l they are KNOW who and what they are looking for and I think it is bordering on narcissistic to think that LE looks to this humble site as a source of information that may lead them to a big 'kill'. The truth is that we are just not that interesting.
Oh, I know what I have coming. Many will lambaste me for this post. To that I say..... Provide me with one syllable of PROOF that LE lurks and acquires useful information here.
Peace, Daisy
I have no proof they read this board specifically, but i can't imagine why they wouldn't. They don't even need to pay for a membership and they can have software do the searching using Google and automatically spit out reports every day.
The FDA was monitoring drug-related internet posts six years ago so i'm sure that they, DEA, and Customs are all much better at it now. They probably have it automated to save labor. If they want to follow someone's posts or posts containing certain keywords, all they need to do is add some lines to a data file. The software to do it is trivial.
Go look up the 1998 posts on alt.drugs by "Samson" talking about how upset he was that an FDA Review Panel had an FDA staff report summarizing his and other internet poster's thoughts about the abuse potential of tramadol as part of the FDA's decisionmaking on whether to schedule it. Back in those days they had a GS-12 or so do the grunt work. Now it's gotta be computerized and i'm sure they have bots searching for new message boards to read and cache. Those old tramadol threads were archived by Dejanews and their entire USENET archive was bought by Google. Even back then, many posters were hiding their IPs with chained proxy servers or by using anonymizing newsgroup servers. The network tracing tools have improved dramatically since then.
If you want privacy, the only way is to use strong encryption. Get the $50 personal version of PGP and you can encrypt folders and volumes on your computer that would be practically impossible to decode. I'll bet we'll be seeing more and more small message boards that only have encrypted messages and the members share their public keys only amongst themselves. The 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of speech, even if it's encrypted. It's not a crime to talk in code unless you're using it for an illegal purpose. But if they don't know what you're talking about, they can't have probable cause to force you to turn over the decryption key. Try using encryption in China and they'll put you in prison.
Trampy
P.S. The reason bots can't index the VIP side is that it's password protected. If DB wanted to keep bots from indexing the free board, they could do it very easily.
http://www.nutch.org/docs/en/bot.html
http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/exclusion.html#robotstxt
Edited by Trampy (06/06/04 11:33 PM)
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daisyhess
Journeyman
Reged: 04/16/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Far, far, far Northern Minneso...
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I concur with dmann. Take the 'War on Drugs' for instance. LE may spend some effort to pick off users on the street level as a way of making an example and reminding people that 'they' are watching. But..... On the flip side of that is their real endeavour. They don't want the junkie or even his supplier for that matter. They want the big guys, the ones doing the importing. I think that protocol applies here as well. They are not after the CP patient getting dubious prescriptions for Hydro. I have to wonder if they even want the OP. My suspcion is that they are looking for who is supplying the OP. That would be a big kill, IMHO.
Since I am on the subject...... My opinion on the 'war on drugs' is that it is a fruitless exercise in nonsense. They will NEVER win. As long as people create a market for drugs there will be someone willing to indulge them. I say that we legalize and tax the h-e-l-l out of it. Have government run 'drug stores'. Safe, clean products. That would cut down on so much crime, spread of disease and on and on. Look at the Netherlands. I think their posture on pot is rooted in common sense and it works. Drug related crime (as it applies to pot) is almost non-existent. They are even lenient with regard to heroin addicts. There are state funded needle exchange programs to reduce the spread of HIV. The attitude is that we (the government) are going to pay for this persons lifestyle choice one way or the other. Why not pay now? Needles are a sight cheaper than treating an AIDS patient.
Someone will always be willing to supply what the public wants. If people are going to buy drugs one way or the other, they would be much better served purchasing from a trusted source than from some sleazy drug dealer on the street. But it will never happen because so many politicians are swept into office by pandering to the hysteria surrounding drug use. As long as buzz words like 'tough on crime' and 'war on drugs' get results we will continue with our backward, unbelievably expensive and useless policies. It just doesn't work. And I don't think it ever will. Peace, Daisy
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A feather out of someone elses arse does not look good in your hat!
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patient2all
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/16/02
Posts: 293
Loc: usa
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Just want to add that some search engines ignore META tags so use a robots.txt file too.
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patient2all
It's a sad world, getting sadder by the day....
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arecondo
Stranger
Reged: 05/22/04
Posts: 16
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Unfortunately, they don't have to rely necessarily on robots to search the net for info ... they can simply put one of their agents to read the boards, especially for big boards like DB and some other
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PIGINPAIN
Journeyman
Reged: 06/10/04
Posts: 85
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Quote:
To that I say..... Provide me with one syllable of PROOF that LE lurks and acquires useful information here.
Peace, Daisy
Daisy,
This is not proof, but it will open an eye or two for some. Type in "FBI Carnivore Omnivore" into your favorite search engine. Then spend a min. of 20 min.s reading a few links.
The FBI used Carnivore w/o court orders or public knowledge for 1-2 years during "testing." Since 9/11 the sharing of info between feds, like FBI to DEA, has increased 100 times. PM is definitely the way to go for specific facts from one party to another. DB should only be meeting ground and activism.
Fact- DEA just budgeted for 60 new diversion investigators. The storm is not here, but there are clouds on the horizion. I seek caution, not fear and activism, not anarchy.
"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they AREN'T out to get you"- Retired Naval Intelligence Officer
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djfrvr
Stranger
Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 5
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I don't really think so, nyc. DEA most certainly can watch sites like DB and actually get a lot of valuable info either by just reading posts or actually getting registered and cherry pick various members (they can easily set up accounts associated with fake identities and fake credit cards when payment to join the particular board is required to be made via a credit card), so I dunno think they have to actually wait for some particular discussion on the effectiveness of a certain OP for the raid to happen. In fact, a raid can occur when least expected, when people think all is going well and when the OP has actually gained the trust of the people, case in which the latter would not have much to discuss in relation to that OP.
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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Anyone remember The Hive? It was a messageboard about manufacturing drugs, mostly chemistry discussion.
The feds busted several people who were bragging a bit much about what they'd done. Turns out what they said they had done was an understatement- one guy got particularly screwed, Eleusis.
Do a search on this if you're interested. They definitely do read messageboards.
-yawkaw
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patient2all
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/16/02
Posts: 293
Loc: usa
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Anyone know Pig Latin?
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patient2all
It's a sad world, getting sadder by the day....
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flippie
Member
Reged: 06/13/04
Posts: 102
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I am not arguing your overall point, I agree 100% but I was a member of Hive for years, and...well, long story short, the board was not taken down, nor did it have anything to do with the arrests that resulted.
I don't know how much is public information and what is not so I am not going to talk about it, but #1 Hive is still up and going strong and #2 any arrests or investigations made of people on the board were unrelated to the postings.
I am sure that if you use google groups to search usenet, you will find a thread where someone will explain how Strike was a DEA agent all the time, and SA was a DEA front, etc - but you can also find threads that explain how the current Pope sold the Zyclon-B gas to the Nazis as part of the SMOM (Solvern Order of Malta, a branch of Freemasonry who guard the pope).
The truth is though that the arrests involving the Hive involved one isolated person whose junkie bimbo g/f ran her mouth about a specific lab, and another investigation of a specific author who owned a chemical supply store.
Nothing at all to do with the postings. Guess what - the people who hang out on a BBS dedicated to discussing manufacturing illegal drugs sometimes DO manufacture illegal drugs, and sometimes they get caught (or framed, in this case of course).
Check underground electronics boards out too - satellite hacking in particular.
I am in no way suggesting that we are safe discussing anything illegal, but what they used to do on Hive is discuss "Dreams" as in "Yesterday I had a dream that I had 250ml of MDP2P in a round-bottomed flask" or also they use SWIM as in SWIM has been looking for an alternate source of sodium for a Birch, since lithium is getting too expensive" where SWIM means Someone Who Isn't Me.
Take your pick - just be subtle. We aren't telling the feds anything they don't already know, as a general rule, especially with the new super-carnivore called DCS-1000 (look it up) crawling around on the net. Just make no directly incriminating statements, and don't post with your real name.
And if you can, use a proxy to get here. They are cheap as dirt nowdays, and can offer you a whole new layer of protection.
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
Anyone remember The Hive? It was a messageboard about manufacturing drugs, mostly chemistry discussion.
The feds busted several people who were bragging a bit much about what they'd done. Turns out what they said they had done was an understatement- one guy got particularly screwed, Eleusis.
Do a search on this if you're interested. They definitely do read messageboards.
-yawkaw
Do a search and you'll find that the Hive did not even exist when Eleusis was arrested. He was posting about recipes on alt.drugs.chemistry (a.d.c.) and DEA only found out his handle there after they arrested him and looked at his computer.
http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/eleusis/memoirs.html
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flippie
Member
Reged: 06/13/04
Posts: 102
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Yeah Eleusis had absolutely nothing to do with it.
But neither did any postings.
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potatoboy99
Permanent Fixture
Reged: 02/04/03
Posts: 1199
Loc: Deep North (East)
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Quote:
Anyone remember The Hive? It was a messageboard about manufacturing drugs, mostly chemistry discussion.
The feds busted several people who were bragging a bit much about what they'd done.
-yawkaw
Huh. I used to be fairly active on the Hive, at one point (under a different user name). It had a kind of Wild West nuttiness that I thought was really entertaining for a while.
Even though my recreational days are long behind me, (so most of what was discussed on the Hive was useless to me, except as entertainment), from time to time I would find good info in the IOP and e-mail source forums, including links and urls for places not discussed here on DB.
Then they booted me off for some reason, no idea why. Just totally denied me access to the forums. Oh well.. Somehow I don't think I'm missing much.
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flippie
Member
Reged: 06/13/04
Posts: 102
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When Strike first started it years ago, I saw the announcement on the usenet forum that I used the most at the time - alt.drugs.chemistry. I thought to myself "Holy cow, this is going to be the biggest flop since the quadraphonic hifi albums", and I'm glad that I was wrong.
I made some great friends there (different name) and still visit occasionally. After one of the more significant people got popped for something unrelated to the BBS I stopped hanging there as much. I was also on their IRC all the time talking to several of the higher-profile posters (and it was one of them that got popped - please no names or nicknames if you know them, let's pay respects where they are due and keep names out of it).
potatoboy99 you know, I have thought about that for the past couple years, but until just now I hadn't really realized the truth in it, but for the most part "My recreational drug days are behind me".
Mine really more or less are too, at least in the magnitude discussed on Hive (did you see the photo one particular IP (Important Person) took of the mirror that had MDMA spelled out on it in pure MDMA powder? They did that in a hotel room when two of the members first met and became friends). That kind of recreational use is out of the question, I'm too old.
Interesting that this thread would make me realize it, but I haven't broken any real drug laws (except herb) in years (and the occasional OP, if that is illegal, I guess it isn't but it is defidently gray market because of sketchy public opinion, which is a shame but its another thread in itself).
I used to eat acid by the sheet (and yes, I have "been like this" since before doing lots of psychedelics, so it isn't the drugs that screwed me up it was my DNA and my environmental conditioning, same as everyone who tries to make an excuse for their current life) and now I have no interest in a single tab. I mean that too - I used to do multi-milligram doses of high power acid and lay on the floor for hours with Syncro-Energizer type glasses on listening to binaural beats, etc (I am sure a few of you know what I'm talking about when I say syncro-energizer - those flashing light goggles/headphones that almost hyponotize you, or at least induce Theta state).
If you have taken acid and within two hours you are still able to walk and/or pronounce any words at all except "I gooma ba nadee! hahahahah!" than you are not tripping, as far as we were concerned.
Then potatoboy99 has to get me thinking and makes me realize that this was years ago, and I'll never do it again. Thanks PB99, as silly as it sounds, you have just made me realize something really significant about myself - I'm getting old and slightly more serious about life (39 last month). No more mouthfulls of ecclectic designer drugs, just an occasional benzo when the stress hits and a Paxil every day and the nightly bowl or two and I'm set.
Reading on Hive about the specific current 3 most popular methods of producing meth scares the chit outta me. When I was a lot younger, I might as well have not taken the speed syringe out of my arm, but nowdays it would be mostly unreacted eph pills, and that scares me.
And that fear reminds me of my age too.
Anyway enough of this total digression, thanks for the good memories fellas, and thanks for the realization that I am an adult, potatoboy99 - you made me realize what I hadn't noticed for the past two decades, without even trying. 
Now if you will excuse me, Power Rangers is coming on, and I think its going to be a good one.
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flippie
Member
Reged: 06/13/04
Posts: 102
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Omnivore is not a real related product, it was an open-source attempt at emulating the kind of distributed sniffing network the government has. Do that same search you recommend without the word omnivore, or better yet use the searches below. Otherwise what you said is entierly accurate, it is old old news that all sites are spidered. Don't get me started on a rant about searches for steg that DCS can do.
There WAS a product developed by the FBI (not the DEA) called Carnivore, which is essentially just a high-speed sniffer box that they can tell a major ISP backbone to put on their lines, to do digital keyword searches.
The Carnivore project got a lot of bad press and too many allegations of abuse of it were made (I wonder what happened to those alligations, btw) so it was scrapped.
Now instead of Carnivore, we have what is called DCS-1000. That is the Fed's new tool that makes Carnivore look weak, but notice the nice friendly name, DCS-1000 compared to Carnivore.
Now that it has a friendly name, nobody talks about it anymore. But go to http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=dcs-1000+-link&btnG=Search and read about it.
I've digressed WAY too much in this thread, even more than in others, so I'm going to stop after one more comment - if you do not know what Echelon is, you do not know Big Brother, and you do not know paranoia. Echelon has been around for decades, and several of the nations participating in it with the USA are openly admitting it.
The ACLU has a page up called Echelonwatch - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=echelon+watch&btnG=Search
Simply put, Echelon is THE central nervous system of big brother. It ties all telephone lines, transatlantic cables, satellite communications, data links, etc in many countries together and allows central monitoring. This is an established fact, like I said many countries are pissed at the USA over their own participation in the Echelon project, because the USA has been using Echelon for private (national economic) gain for many years. In other words, industrial espionage. The USA has been spying on other nations scientific R&D - and consequently we have been world leaders.
Echelon and it's evil tenticles may well be the reason Americans' lives are as easy as they are now, compared to an African village where they walk two miles to get buckets of tainted water every day. America isn't #1 - our spy network is.
Check the links, since a lot of them are from government and reputable press sites, it should at least be enough to convince you that Echelon is very real, and that DCS-1000 is DEFIDENTLY scanning THIS post right here that I am typing - within a few hours of me hitting the Submit button, this very message will be physically read by a human employee of some government agency, because of the digital keywords that it contains.
On alt.drugs.chemistry we used to use what we called Spook files - that is, for our .sig file we would fill it with things like "MARK OPUS.TYMNET.COM GTD5 ESS5 EPHEDRINE REDUCTION OLLIE NORTH FREEMASONRY COCAINE PRESIDENTIAL ASSINATION" etcetc - anything we knew would get the attention of both the drug police and the hacking police (who were the Secret Service at the time).
Once again there is Potato's wisdom ringing in my ears, telling me that was pretty dumb stuff to be doing back then, and as an adult, I just couldn't bring myself to. It just isn't funny anymore, its downright scary.
And you know what? It shoudn't be. But it is.
BTW I am a STAUNCH believer in teaching people to fish rather than giving them a sandwich, so if anybody is interested in how things like keyword sniffing or Carnivore or DCS-1000 or certain parts of Echelon work, check out the free program Ethereal at http://www.ethereal.com (specifically from http://www.ethereal.com/distribution/win32/ )- install it on your PC and run it, then imagine it using all of the custom filter routines fine-tuned for certain things, and then imagine that on a MASSIVE supercomputing scale across all major voice and data pipes around the globe. You will see the significance immediately. I cannot stress enough how much you will learn about computer networking just by installing and running this single program. There are dozens of sniffers, but this one is easy to install and use, and it is free. Unless you are a network administrator or other computer technical person, this will be the most productive and educational thing you have ever done with your PC, at least regarding learning how a network like the Internet works. It'll take you less than an hour, and you'll go to bed tonight a lot more informed, so go ahead and bother - it is worth it.
Then you might start browsing the web for a free country to live in. I've already done that last part myself, and damnit, THIS is the best one of them! THIS US of A is where I want to be, after all this I've said. But I'll stop now, I know the BBS ops here must hate me for getting so far off topic.
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