Adenosine
Newbie
Reged: 06/01/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Spokompton, Washington
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I have chronic insomnia, and have excellent success with treating insomnia with short acting sedatives (once i get to sleep I stay asleep). The problem is that most of those substance I quickly from a tolerance to, and stop working. Ambien will quit after 3 days. Zopiclone seems to quit on the 4th or so day. I ammuse just upping the dosing could result in dependance. Benzodiazepines seem to work, as long as they are extremely short acting. (or i find it hard to wake up)
I've tried both amtitriptyline and seroquel to go to sleep, at many different doses and timings. Is there anything out there with no dependance issues and a SHORT half life in the body?
Another problem is the fact that I like natural sleep best, so often by the time i know i need to sleep, it will be 12 in the morning, and most medications will make it extremely difficult to wake up, or leave me feeling 'hit by a train' due to anti-chlorenogenic action.
Anybody in a similar situation had luck?
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potatoboy99
Permanent Fixture
Reged: 02/04/03
Posts: 1200
Loc: Deep North (East)
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This might seem ridiculous to you, but I take Exedrin PM several times a week, and it works every time.
I have also had success with Valerian tea. Valerian is an herb chemically related somehow (supposedly anyway) to Valium. Many people find it very effective in treating anxiety and in getting to sleep. You can also get it in pill and tincture form.
I'm not an actual insomniac, so maybe these solutions are too lightweight for you!
Good luck
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cleo911
Board Addict
Reged: 08/21/02
Posts: 373
Loc: Reykjavik
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The Excedrin PM thing doesn't seem at all ridiculous. The PM stuff in that and Tylenol PM is called diphenydramine. I just get the pure tabs, which is all that Nytol and Sominex caplets are. That stuff will really knock your a$$ out. I usually rotate my sleep meds between benzos, somas, and diphenydramine. I've never had much luck with valerian, but many have. Melatonin would be another suggestion.
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Adenosine
Newbie
Reged: 06/01/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Spokompton, Washington
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I've not found very much luck with OTC sleep aids that contain sedating antihistamines, such as diphenhydramine, because they tend to make me paranoid, and as such are not condusive to sleep. I've looked at soma before, but I'm not so sure that a skelatal muscle relaxer would be very sleep inducing (of course, that's comming from a person who's tried an atypical antipsychotic for sleep).
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Greycie
Old Hand
Reged: 07/08/03
Posts: 461
Loc: Pacific NorthWest
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My doctor has prescribed Trazodone for my insomnia because it's not long lasting (effects wear off after 6-8 hours) and it's non addictive. Good luck. I've heard it doesn't work for some people, but it almost always works for me 
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Dextromethorphan seems to potentiate benzodiazapines, so you don't have to keep increasing the benzo dosage. The expensive route is to buy DM cough syrup and take equivalent of about 30mg of DM (aka DXM)along with the normal sleep dose of benzo -- I like 2mg Clonazepam (Rivotril/Klonopin) but that may be too long acting for you. Look for my posts on LTK research threads or PM me for the less expensive DXM approach -- you have to be much more careful with cheap approach.
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Adenosine
Newbie
Reged: 06/01/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Spokompton, Washington
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I would consider trazadone, but i've heard problems of morning hangovers, and i'm already on an SSRI (fluoxetine).
As for DXM.....
A) dm cough syrup is DM because it has guafanestine in it. This substance will make you extremeley nauseos in high amounts. The best to take for OTC DXM only containing products are robo max, or dexalone, or the new robitussin gelcaps with only 15mg dxm each.
B) DXM is a disassociative anethestic, and long term use of certain disassocitaves has been linked to brain damage.
C) Taking DXM at the same time as a SSRI has a risk of seretonin sydrome (which ssri's and seretogenic drugs in general carry the risk of), which is a potentially FATAL disorder.
-----------------------harm reduction only----------------
DXM IS DANGEROUS
IT WILL HURT YOU IF YOU USE IT IN HIGH DOSES TOO OFTEN
http://www.third-plateau.org
plz don't flame me for that link, i'm just trying to stop
people from taking dxm without knowing the FULL risk
involved. Last thing I want to hear about is some
kid dying because he took a package of coricin.
----------------------harm reduction-------------
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jim539
Stranger
Reged: 01/07/02
Posts: 9
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Not all otc sleep aids use the same antihistamine. I have found that the antihistamine: doxylamine sucinate found in Unisom works best for me. I use the cheapo Rite-Aid or Wall Green brand. They work fine and I find doxylamine sucinate (not sure of its exact spelling) works much better than diphenhydramine.
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kimbell1
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/20/03
Posts: 274
Loc: Route 666, Painville, Texas 6...
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You might go to a health food store. Thee is a valerian comination. I can't remember the other herbs but I took it for several years and it worked longer than perscription sleeping pills or tranqualizers which I also find short acting because I build tolerances quickly.
Currently I use actifed and that seems to work faily well.
I also have trazedon (I probably misspelled the name). I notice a few posters use it. I have taken it but find that I have to sleep it off or I feel really hung over. As far as I am concerned its one of the worse things to take for sleeping (or depression which is its main function).
I have had a lot of experience with sleep aids, both over the counter and prescription since I too am an insomniac. There is no clear cut answer. Just try the over the counter stuf until you find one that works if you can.
I wasn't much help because insomnia is related to a variety of differrent problems like stress or depression.
Good luck
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Paranoia is just hightened awareness.
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digitalone
Reged: 08/18/03
Posts: 181
Loc: USA
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Hi Adenosine,
I fight the same battle and it's tough. I've tried Ambien, but that only gives me about 4 hours sleep max - then I wind up taking Xanax or Valium, in the middle of the night, to get back to sleep again. I have been prescribed Trazodone as well, but it gives me nightmares for some reason or another. What's really been good for me is working out, in some way or another, during the day - not napping at all - and taking Flexeril when going to bed at a decent time. I'm so asleep after that and can get at least 8 hours. I don't get any hang-over type effect, but it's really hard to wake up for some reason. Perhaps because it's gentically-structured similarly to Elavil. I wish you the best and hope you find peace in sleep soon.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
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I also have trazedon (I probably misspelled the name). I notice a few posters use it. I have taken it but find that I have to sleep it off or I feel really hung over. As far as I am concerned its one of the worse things to take for sleeping (or depression which is its main function).
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For sleep problems, Trazedone is the first thing the docs try to foist off on you - same sleep-aid effect as an antihistamine, with the added beauty of intense nightmares. I wish the docs would try this stuff before Rxing it.
IMHO the best sleep aid is a moderate term benzo, like 2 mg Clonazepam (Klonopin/Rivotril) potentiated with 30-100 mg of dextromethorphan. Main issue is whether or not the DXM has permanent destructive effects with chronic use at this level? Plus side is that you don't seem to build a tolerance to benzos with this combination. Happy dreams.
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Adenosine
Newbie
Reged: 06/01/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Spokompton, Washington
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Yeah.
It's interesting that you look at the pharmacology of the tricyclic antidepressants, and the atypical psychotics, and the main mechanism of sleep is *SUPRISE* anti-cholinergenic action. If I wanted that, I would buy some wal-som and use it, less chance of seretonin sydrome, or getting twitches I can never get rid of.
Unfortunatly, it seems anything that works with GABA (and works!) seems to be tolerance forming. I was thinking about getting Halcion because of supposedly very short half life, but was worried about tolerance and dependance issues.
As for the herbal approach, I've tried it all. Kava-Kava, valerian, melatonin, even mixes with valerian and passionroot and all sorts of 'sedating' herbs. They work, but only if i eat half a 10 dollar package of them. Melatonin doesn't even seem to be able to improve my dream recall, let alone help me sleep.
Flexeril may proove useful, I have heard other people say that that helps them sleep. I would be happy with an anti-c as long as I could find one that was STRONG with an increadibly short half life.
Oh well... I wonder if I could work out a feasable rotation scheme.
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Sky_Queen
Fly Girl
Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 1962
Loc: Texas
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I haven't heard Restoril mentioned here yet, I've heard from a good friend that works good. I'm not sure there is anything that is not habit forming that will work. That's the unfortunate problem. I've been sleeping like a baby with my Xanax, of course we all know how addictive that is but I have to get my rest, period. Best of luck!
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
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Unfortunatly, it seems anything that works with GABA (and works!) seems to be tolerance forming. I was thinking about getting Halcion because of supposedly very short half life, but was worried about tolerance and dependance issues.
...
IMO, GABA-related sleep aids, either benzos or ambien, are definitely the most effective and invoke the least bad dream activity. I have read some studies that tolerance is more of a problem with short-acting benzos (and ambien), because you get a rebound anxiety effect as they clear out. I found this true with both ambien and halcion - I will usually wake-up after a few hours. I think its part of the rebound effect. Then you tend to want to take more, this is also truo especially for Xananx when used for anxiety. Mid-length benzos like Rivotril/Klonopin seem better due to lack of rebound, though you do risk that lethargic feeling the next day -- I drink 4-5 cups of coffee in the AM to get going. The really long acting benzos like Dalmane (and the infamous Rohypnol)never completely clear your system and you end up kind of zombified with chronic use. FYI - There is an informative anti-benzo web site in the UK: www.benzo.org.uk which has a lot of info about benzos and protocols for those who want to stop. Never go cold turkey after chronic benzo usage! As for me, right now Klonopin potentiated with DXM work fine and I haven't raised Klonopin dose in six months.
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qbird
material girl
Reged: 09/02/02
Posts: 841
Loc: USA
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Restoril gives me a bad hangover if I can even sleep with it. I have to take several to get to sleep. Xanax is also the only thing that helps in my case. Halcion isn't very effective, and Ambien makes me feel speedy the next day.
I have tried all the herbs and over the counter products which don't do squat for my insomnia. I also say use whatever works.
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jprado
Stranger
Reged: 02/24/03
Posts: 4
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F.Y.I. diphenydramine = benadryl. sometimes plain "benadryl" is cheaper than sleep products contianing it. Any sleep med will lose it's effect after a period, and may cause your problem to worsen. Watch caffine intake after noon, and try to find a link between sleeplessness and behavior, stress ect., it may be secondary to one of these. Ambien works great but is for short term use, typically 2 weeks, much more so for benzo sleep aids, over 30 days they become more problematic than helpfull. Any med is more effective when used in combo w/ behavior modification practices. I have resolved my sleep problems to a managable level, and stopped taking sleep meds.
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flea
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/17/02
Posts: 276
Loc: Recently moved to Mid-West, bu...
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I had been using Tylenol PM for several years before i had any chronic pain issues and far before I knew how damaging the "Tylenol" part really was.
Since then I have tried several other meds and have yet to find anything that works really good. That is until about 4 months ago, when I decided to just try Unisom with the hopes that maybe it will help a little.
I had relatively low expectations so you can imagine my surprise when it really started to work. Plus I did not feel groggy in the morning. I have grown a bit tolerant so I have had to up my dose to 4 pills each night, but that seems to do the trick w/out leaving me in zombie land the next day.
Thank GOD I stopped taking Tylenol PM. That along with all of the hydrocodones and fioricets I have had to use this past year for my back pain is surely going to get me a one way ticket to liver damage land. I hope not, but some of my liver enzymes have already come back a little elevated. I will be so mad at myself if I have caused any damage to my liver. With my luck, after years of this back pain I will finally get better and then suddenly find out that my liver is all messed up. Story of my life.
Anyway - - Good Luck!!
P.S. This may sound crazy but I decided to buy one of those sound machines from Sharper Image and believe it or not, it helps!! I turn it on Summer Nights, and it almost makes me feel like I am back at the house I grew up in. Ah, I miss those warm California Summer Nights. So maybe that will help some of you. I know it is not medicinal, but it can put you in a trance. I guess it would be better if when it is emitting the summer night sounds that it slowy released happy gas through the speakers. I would be able to toss out the Unisom once and for all!! HA
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Flea
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Skylark
Member
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 114
Loc: California
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I use good old fashioned Benadryl - you can buy the generic from the store and it's cheap and effective. They also offer "Simply Sleep" that is by the makers of Tylenol, and it has just the sleep aid in it (no Tylenol).
Good luck!!
Skylark
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"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"....-E. Roosevelt
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flea
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/17/02
Posts: 276
Loc: Recently moved to Mid-West, bu...
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Hey everyone, just wanted to give my experience w/Benadryl since it seems it works quite well for many of you! Well I remember once many years ago (10 to be exact) I had my first experience w/Benadryl. I was at my house w/my best friend and we wanted to lay out in the pool and get really tan for a party that night. Since it was California in the middle of summer, IT WAS SO HOT. So instead of getting in the pool and getting bored and too hot after a short time we decided to take about 2 doses each of Benydral so we could end up falling asleep hours on end, with our bodies cooking in the crisco we had slathered on. (please, no lectures needed, really)
Instead of drifting off into a peacefull, middle of the summer nap, we had a bad reaction that made us doze off and within probably about 30- 60 seconds we would twitch awake so hard our bodies would actually almost flip the little blow up raft we were laying out on.
We both asked eachother how the other one felt and the answer was unanimous. HORRIBLE. It was like a strangely delusional drug altered state (which at that age was something we were usually looking for most of the time HA HA) butdefinately not in the manner in whcih this occurred.
We only stayed out there an hour and a half before we could take no more. Strangely enough it felt as though we had been out there 10 hours.
After going inside we tried to take a nap but that strange phenomenon kept happening. We would close our eyes, our eye lids were really heavy and we would quickly drift off, then boom - -we were jarred awake and we would literally twitch.
It seemed like we kept having those dreams that sometime occurr when you are really tired and start to doze off when it suddenly feels like you are falling off a large building and right before you hit the ground you force your body to wake up. Except when you do wake up it is not a gentle awakening. Oh no, in that dream when you just about slam to the ground your body somehow protects you from the imaginary free fall and forces you to WAKE UP! You can twitch so bad that your arms and legs can be flailing all over the place and if someone is next to you there is a chance they will get kicked or slapped just by the sheer force of your subconscious telling your body that if you don't wake up you will hit the ground quite hard. OUCH.
Well that was our mutual experience with Benydral. The saddest part was we did not even end up going to the party that night because it took forever to get that stuff out of our system. We were really tired the whole day but we said we still wanted to go because we had planned it for so long. Well long story a little shorter....we started to get ready to go and had our cute clothes on, make-up done, a good tan going and we decided to have a couple beers before we went. We drank the first one really fast. We felt a little sick afterward but we brushed that off our shoulder saying it was the anticipation of the party that was making us nervous, hence a little sick to our stomach. Well after chugging the 2nd beer we started to get kind of dizzy and things were moving in slow motion. We thought it would pass if we laid down for a few moments so that was what we did.
As you can imagine, beer and Benydral don't mix to well. If only we could have figured that one out!! We ended up waking up 4 1/2 hours later with the lights on, music blarring, and drool on the side off both of our mouths. We were both in such deep deep sleep we drooled on our pillows which also washed our make up off on one side of our mouth. It was hilarious. Even funnier i woke up and found my best friend spooning me. Um, HELLO! We just cracked up..
When we went back to school on Monday everyone asked us where we went. Of course we couldn't tell the truth so we just decided to lie. We said we ended up going to Santa cruz for the weekend. We then had to sit through detail after detail of the party we slept through. It was terrible. Turned out to be the best party our friends had ever been to. Well of course we missed it, after all it was the "best party ever" and that is just the way my life works. Sadly, my luck has not changed and this kind of stuff still happens. Only I now live in Wisconsin, don't have a pool and am very very pale. It just never ends!
i thought the only reason we had such a bad experience w/the stuff was because we took about 2 doses each of the benydral and we sat out in the HOT sun for a long time while it was in our system. Plus we were a bit dehydrated from drinking a lot the night before. Then that night we passed out because we still had most of it in our system but we still decided to drink. Lastly, we were both quite sunburned and I am sure that could not have helped! I really did not think I would ever have a problem with Benydral again if I just followed the proper directions and did not drink. Well wrong again. I have taken it quite a few times since that one weird summer day and each time I experienced the same thing. It's horrible. I never can get any real rest if I have to take that medication for a bug bite or something. It turns into an awful experience and I would rather deal with the bug bite side effects rather than ever take Benydral ever again.
However it's cool it works for many of you!! Take care everyone and I wish you all a good nights sleep!
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Flea
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Reel_X_4U
Enthusiast
Reged: 04/24/03
Posts: 255
Loc: Queens, New York City
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I've tried Placidyl 500mg on a empty stomach and it is very fast-acting and will give you the eight hours of sleep you are lookin g for. Another older sleeping med chloral Hydrate which also works pretty good. But the best sleeping-med I've ever tried is Seconal 200mg. Nothing works better then that, also Mandrax (methaqualone) is also a good sleeping pill. As is Nembutal 100mg. If you want to natural, then try the amino acid L-tryptothan and valerain root on a empty stomach. On the benzo side Halcion 0.5mg is one of the best, just has some weird side-effects, will cause extreme rebound anxiety and insomnia, once you stop taking it. Another one from the benzo side is prosom 1mg and also Dalmane 30mg. Restoril never "REELLY" worked for me. You can also give phenobarbital 60mg a shot. Trazadone 100mg is also good, it kind of gave me weird dreams. From tricyclic anti-depressants side both Elavil 25mg and Sinaquan 50 mg are the most sedating, especially Sinaquan. Ambien 10mg works fine but it make me feel weird the next day, like not quite myself. Of all the sleeping meds the most effective Halcion, Seconal, Nembutal, Placidyl, Mandrax and Sinaquan. All better yet try to do something physical through-out the whole day, the tired-out feeling will bring about a natural sleep. Good-luck I hope you get the sleep you are looking for,
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Some men see things as they are and say "WHY"!!
Some men see things as they are and say "WHY"!!
I've dreamt of things that never were, and say "WHY NOT"!!
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Dr123
Newbie
Reged: 08/19/03
Posts: 39
Loc: south
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I have obstructive sleep apnea so I have difficulty sleeping and staying asleep (I am aroused [from sleep, I am not using the word with sexual connotations )anyway melatonin is a growth releasing hormone or something like that, and 2 mg will put you to sleep and keep you there for over 5 hours. You can buy more mgs but try 1mg or 2mg first. It is safe and nonaddictive. Tylenol PM uses an antihistamine to make one sleepy, and others have covered that pretty well; but, remember that it is the tylenol that is responsible for how many pain meds (like hydros with tylenol) a doctor can prescribe. We can take 240mg of hydrocodone per day but only 4 grams is the limit for Tylenol. Some deaths, according to McNeil, have occurred with 4 g of tylenol. That is the exception I think, but when we get close to 10grams of Tylenol we are getting ourselves into health problems. N-acetyl Cystine can help reverse the damage tylenol does and I think Milk Thissle helps too. With all of the OTC products we take as well as pain meds that require a prescription, taking Tylenol PM for sleep is a bit risky. Just be careful
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Shithead47
Stranger
Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 1
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Like most people said, taking Tylenol PM is not a good idea. If you are not in pain, why take acetaminophen which can harm other organs? I have chronic, CHRONIC, primary insomnia. Done the whole sleep lab thing, and tried every medication prescribed and OTC, and every combination of them. Believe it or not, the best results for me after 10 years of trial and error is:
1) avoid EtOH before bed - nightcaps do not help you stay asleep, you may fall asleep quicker, but will wake up;
2) no napping is also a good idea; and
3) the medication that worked for me best is a combination of 1 pill of doxylamine succinate (found in some Unisom, others have benadryl so stay away from that) and 0.5 of klonopin. You fall asleep with 30 minutes, no awakenings (or few brief ones), and no hangover.
Everyone is different, so not sure if the same for you. But I have tried everything.
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