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barelythere
Journeyman
Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 81
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Attorney General Targets Internet Drug Sales
Details of draft legislation (BR 1133) made public
FRANKFORT, KY (February 4, 2005) - Attorney General Greg Stumbo today proposed legislation that halts the unregulated distribution of pharmaceuticals to the public through the Internet.
BR 1133 incorporates the best practices from other state laws designed to control Internet pharmacies, as well as recommendations from The Attorney Generals Task Force on Internet Pharmacy Regulation (which includes members of the Drug Enforcement Administration, Kentucky State Police, Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, Lexington and Louisville Police, Commonwealths and County Attorneys, Justice and Public Safety, National Association of Drug Diversion Investigators, Drug Task Force Members and a pharmacist representative.)
Key elements of BR 1133 include:
Requires online pharmacies to obtain a permit issued by the Board of Pharmacy
Defines an Illegal Internet Pharmacy as one that does not have a valid permit and attempts to fill a prescription or deliver a genuine or counterfeit controlled substance to a person in Kentucky
Requires compliance with the KASPER monitoring system (KRS 218A.202)
Requires a toll-free number allowing any patient to consult with a qualified pharmacist
Requires receipt and display of a seal of approval from the National Association of Boards of Pharmacy certifying that it is a Verified Internet Pharmacy Practice Site
Forbids filling any prescription not delivered in accordance with all state and federal laws
Forbids issuing any prescription without a physical examination within six months preceding the date of the prescription
Violation of this law is a Class C Felony, unless death or serious bodily injury results, in which case it is a Class B Felony
Commonwealths Attorneys and the Attorney General have concurrent jurisdiction to enforce the law
Public health and safety are threatened by online drug pushers, Stumbo said. Anyone, including children, can easily obtain highly addictive controlled substances online. This practice must be regulated in Kentucky.
BR 1133 now goes before the General Assembly for consideration. The bill is sponsored by Representative Mike Weaver, Senator R.J. Palmer II and Senator Dick Roeding.
"This problem is crippling all of Kentucky. This bill is not a final solution, but it will make it more difficult for illegal prescription medications to make it into our state," said R.J. Palmer, D-Winchester.
We are in need of some avenue for the Board of Pharmacy to regulate and manage Internet pharmacy sales and how prescriptions are making their way into Kentucky. Right now the Board of Pharmacy has no control and, as a result, is unable to protect the consumer, said Senator Dick Roeding, R-Lakeside Park.
It appears we have a serious problem with prescription drugs coming into the Commonwealth, said Senator Mike Weaver, D-Elizabethtown. Theres an insatiable need for drugs such as Oxycontin. The problem is the Internet pharmacies that will fill this need for drugs. Anyone old enough to operate a keyboard or use a telephone can describe symptoms that will allow them to get the drugs they want without ever having a face-to-face visit with a doctor. Those drugs are then shipped by UPS or FedEx as if its legitimate.
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Trey_McC
Old Hand
Reged: 12/07/04
Posts: 411
Loc: Mars
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I believe the problem goes way beyond Kentucky.
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/faq/internetpurch.htm
Quote:
The following Frequently Asked Questions are being published by the Drug Enforcement Administrations (DEA) Office of Diversion Control as an educational/public awareness component relative to the use of the Internet for the purposes of purchasing, prescribing, dispensing and importing of controlled substances
Can an individual order drugs using the Internet without seeing a doctor?
Federal law requires that "A prescription for a controlled substance to be effective must be issued for a legitimate medical purpose by an individual practitioner acting in the usual course of his professional practice" (21 CFR 1306.04(a)). Every state separately imposes the same requirement under its laws. Under Federal and state law, for a doctor to be acting in the usual course of professional practice, there must be a bona fide doctor/ patient relationship.
For purposes of state law, many state authorities, with the endorsement of medical societies, consider the existence of the following four elements as an indication that a legitimate doctor/patient relationship has been established:
A patient has a medical complaint;
A medical history has been taken;
A physical examination has been performed; and
Some logical connection exists between the medical complaint, the medical history, the physical examination and the drug prescribed.
A patient completing a questionnaire that is then reviewed by a physician hired by or working on behalf of an Internet pharmacy does not establish a doctor/patient relationship. A consumer can more easily provide false information in a questionnaire than in a face-to-face meeting with the physician. It is illegal to receive a prescription for a controlled substance without the establishment of a legitimate doctor/patient relationship, and it is unlikely for such a relationship to be formed through Internet correspondence alone. However, this is not intended to limit the ability of practitioners to engage in telemedicine. For purposes of this guidance document, telemedicine refers to the provision of health care using telecommunication networks to transmit and receive information including voice communications, images and patient records.
I would guess it depends on how one interprets the language used here in establishing a doctor/patient relationship.
In my opinion this would make NROPs illegal since the prescribing physician did not see the patient in person.
Trey
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barelythere
Journeyman
Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 81
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Exactly, it's the interpretation. It does not say that the doctor prescribing has to have seen the patient. It says the patient must have been seen. Also, even the DEA has to be careful. I see my physician. He's not on during the weekend and I need a refill on __________. (fill in the blank) Covering physician calls me in a script. He has never seen me but knows I am a patient of the doc he is covering for. That's 100% legal.
The above paragraph by the DEA is why I believe all NROPs to be illegal. However, with a record req/consult req OP you are satisfying the requirements as they are written.
A patient has a medical complaint; Backed up with records faxed to the OP
A medical history has been taken; During the consult and also when filling out the registration forms to the OP
A physical examination has been performed; by the patient's local doc
Some logical connection exists between the medical complaint, the medical history, the physical examination and the drug prescribed. That would be backed up with records and the phone consult.
So all the elemrnts have been met with a legit OP.
NROPs require NO evidence that the patient has a legit complaint or has been seen by any physician, therefore they are not in compliance.
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barelythere
Journeyman
Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 81
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Okay. I think I have been one of the voices of reason, right? Well this article I found this morning sent chills down my spine.
Bill would tighten online pharmacy rules
Attorney generals proposal aimed at prescription abuse
By Hayli Fellwock, -- 270-783-3240
Saturday, February 05, 2005
Kentucky Attorney General Greg Stumbo proposed legislation Friday to crack down on the growing problem of prescription drugs being purchased on the Internet for resale on the black market.
Bill Request 1133, if passed, would tighten regulations for Internet pharmacies and increase monitoring of incoming pharmaceutical packages from outside Kentucky. The bill incorporates elements of legislation passed in Florida and Nevada.
Weve checked both those states and theyve had good results, Stumbo said.
BR 1133 also adds new ideas suggested by a statewide task force consisting of prosecutors and members of law enforcement and public service agencies.
We are adding an enhanced penalty section so the Board of Pharmacy, if it finds an entity is not in compliance, it can levy a pretty hefty fine, Stumbo said.
Though more commonly seen in eastern Kentucky, the new trend in drug trafficking has touched Warren County at least three times, said Bowling Green-Warren County Drug Task Force Detective Shane West.
One case involved Bowling Green businessman Larry Deaton, who pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court in October to wire fraud and conspiracy charges, as well as six counts of obtaining a controlled substance by fraud, forgery, deception or subterfuge. He also has drug charges pending in Warren Circuit Court.
The authorities were tipped off, West said, by a shipping carrier who noticed odd behavior and reported it.
They just said it was weird because they said sometimes hed sign for it and sometimes hed say, Send it back to the depot and Ill send somebody to pick it up. The circumstances just werent right to the carrier its like they were nervous about signing for it at the time.
Law enforcement will increasingly look to shipping carriers to be their eyes and ears, especially if the proposed legislation is passed.
Ideally, the Board of Pharmacy would issue an identifier like a barcode or number to each legal Internet pharmaceutical supplier, Stumbo said. That barcode or number would be placed on the outside of drug packages to help shipping carriers identify, sort out and report to law enforcement any packages that are non-compliant.
You know what pills sound like in a bottle. You know whats in there, plus you know where its coming from, West said. He added that many of the current problems come from Florida-based Internet pharmacies.
Illegal packages could be confiscated by law enforcement under BR 1133, an idea suggested during the task forces most recent meeting on Thursday.
Right now, you can get on the Internet with a credit card, describe your illness and get 100 Loritabs ... 50 Oxycontin pills. You obviously dont have a need for those, Stumbo said. They are shipped to you the next day and those are the ones that are making it onto the black market. We think theres literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of these drugs that come into Kentucky every day and reach the black market.
In addition to reducing illegal Internet pharmaceutical sales, the proposed legislation would address safety issues with the shipping carriers, Stumbo said.
Its a huge safety concern for them, he said. Their drivers are out there carrying these packages and we have had incidents as recently as (Thursday) night where an individual looking pretty distraught perhaps high on some substance came in demanding his package.
Under the proposed legislation, Internet pharmacies would remain compliant by being licensed by the Board of Pharmacy and by reporting more frequently and in greater detail to the Kentucky All Schedule Prescription Electronic Reporting, or KASPER, system.
A bill passed during the 2004 legislative session upgraded KASPER to help crack down on over-prescribing by Kentucky physicians and doctor shopping among Kentucky consumers attempting to gather as many drugs as possible.
That legislation required Kentucky pharmacies to report more punctually to the KASPER system, which in turn provides more data to indicate the areas in which over prescribing is occurring.
Lets take the Big Sandy region we know, statistically, how many people have cancer and various illnesses and how many medicines should be prescribed, and if we see a sharp increase by 20 or 30 percent, that will automatically launch an investigation by the Medical Licensure Board, Stumbo said. Before, we could only use KASPER in a reactive not a proactive manner.
Similar to the previous KASPER legislation, BR 1133 would require within six months of the prescription fill date a face-to-face physical exam with a physician licensed in Kentucky.
Thats going to be a pretty big deterrent to people who would order this type of contraband over the Internet, Stumbo said.
While prohibiting packages from illegal Internet pharmacies, the proposed legislation would not infringe on the individual rights of honest citizens to purchase prescription medicines from legitimate Internet pharmacies, Stumbo said.
Legitimate Internet pharmacies would be required to display on their Web site a seal of approval from the National Association of Boards of Pharmacy certifying that it is a Verified Internet Pharmacy Practice Site.
While legitimate Internet pharmacies could still be abused by drug addicts, Stumbo said the legislation could help put a damper on what is currently a widespread problem.
It can be done, he said. I cant say it will stop, but it will slow to a drip.
Stumbo named Internet pharmaceutical sales as a top problem in fighting drugs, along with the methamphetamine epidemic.
Further legislation is currently being drafted by Gov. Ernie Fletchers office to combat the meth problem.
We have tried to act quickly, and I think thats what were going to have to do if were going to beat the drug problem, because I guarantee you those people because they are so addicted will find a way to get those drugs, Stumbo said. Itll be something new in a couple months. So our perspective, from a law enforcement standpoint, is to keep on top of that.
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Now the part I am concerned about is part that I placed in bold about the the guy who was arrested. Now I talked to my UPS guy who said this was hogwash. A UPS employee was on here saying the same thing. I don't live in KY. But I have to wonder if this kind of carrier scrutiny is all over the country. I didn't talk to anyone at FedEx. But a carrier obviously turned the guy in. Was he DDing? Reselling his meds? Was it a records required place? An NROP? Cod? This Stumbo can't even spell Lortab correctly. He claims oxy is being sold online. He said nobody needs 100 Loritab (sic). He seems to be lumping every person who uses one of these services a raving junkie. Note this quote-Its a huge safety concern for them, he said. Their drivers are out there carrying these packages and we have had incidents as recently as (Thursday) night where an individual looking pretty distraught perhaps high on some substance came in demanding his package." So someone is high on drugs because his package was lost? That's patently unfair. Does he consider a tube of Renova a punishable offense? He says the senders will face a fine but he alludes that the pain patient will be prosecuted. They DID prosecute the guy who acted odd. And I do admit he did act odd according to the carrier who reported him. But was he getting six scripts in six months from his RR OP? That's legal right now but this guy was arrested and faces state and federal charges! Not once until now have I heard of a patient getting arrested for using an OP. All I can say is I hope this guy was not playing by the rules, because if he was, he is getting the shaft here.
This stuff is getting all too nerve wracking. We were all let to believe that if you use a legit records req/phone consult place and didn't DD or divert meds, everything was legal. Well I don't think Stumbo agrees, I think it's time for me to search out a decent neuro or pain management clinic. This is getting too stressful and I feel really lucky I don't libe in KY, but this may be coming to an area near you at some point. That's just plain bone chlling.
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k004
Newbie
Reged: 10/05/04
Posts: 36
Loc: midwest
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"But was he getting six scripts in six months from his RR OP?"
Most ROP allow you to order every 25 days.Which would be about 1 script a month and 2 consults with an online doctor.Some people order antidepressants and such too online not just PAIN meds.
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k004
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scarrlett
Enthusiast
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 202
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I think this is very mis-leading. This is what I posted in the UPS / FedEx thread:
Quote:
Read the article I just posted in the BR 1113 thread. someone did get busted for using an online service. The carrier did turn him in. Don't know all the particuars of his case though. This happened in KY. What a shock, NOT.
This is an exetreme case, not your typical OP customer. This guy was already indicted on conspiracy and fraud charges relating to real estate. When he was arrested on the fraud charges, police found "drugs" at his office. While out on bail, he continued to order from OPs, but under false names, etc., and this violated his bond. This guy was probably under surveillence by the attorney's office & the whole carrier involvement is probably just "spin" for the BR 1113 release.
http://www.wbko.com/news/headlines/442036.html
"Larry Deaton was jailed September 3 on charges of possession and trafficking in controlled substances. He was held until October 13 when his wife posted bond.
The U.S. Attorney's office has obtained evidence Deaton violated his bond , by purchasing Phentermine, Xanax, and Hydrocodone using aliases . So Federal Magistrate Robert Goebel revoked Deaton's bond, and he's now back in the Warren County Jail.
Deaton is also one of ten people who pleaded Not Guilty to conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud in Federal Court a few months ago. Authorities say drugs were also found in his Destiny Lane office when those charges were filed."
It does seem like Kentucky must have some issues with regards to substance abuses & they're trying to get a grip on it.
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mactray
Newbie
Reged: 10/19/04
Posts: 42
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Right now, you can get on the Internet with a credit card, describe your illness and get 100 Loritabs ... 50 Oxycontin pills. You obviously dont have a need for those, Stumbo said.
I love this line. Why would anyone need any medication at all?
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scarrlett
Enthusiast
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 202
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Yeah I know Mac. Pretty scary if you think about an average Joe reading that & then say his wife or any family member becomes ill & he basis any opinion on statements like that.
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BamaChica
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/28/04
Posts: 278
Loc: AL by way of Cali..culture sho...
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I hate to tell the naysayers "i told ya so" but I belive I have been saying for MONTHS that UPS drivers DO REPORT things..I wont go into this again but see see my previous posts...
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prettyday
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 1102
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
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You know I won't react this way, but it makes feel like buying some underage porn, not kids, ladies made up to look that way, some dildoes and enclose a letter to MR.Stumbo thanking him for his frequent purchases and this is a bonus gift for big ticket faithful customers from MENWHONEEDTOBEEXCITED.COM. Then I would send it by mistake to his local television station, because, everybody, this guy is your worst nightmare; he's looking to run for office soon, I'd bet my life on it.
After that I would send a polite but firm letter from Foxwoods casino in Conn. saying that they did not mind comping all those flights and rooms because he did gamble so much, although ethically they wondered how a civil servant could afford it; maybe pension fund? Anyway, their IOUs have come due and Mr.Stumbo needs to pay up.
I'm just kidding.....
But I wonder if anyone has done any digging into Mr. Stumbo's family or past? does he drink? how much? any incarceratons in the family? any past DUIs? Would the IRS be completely happy with his tax reporting?
Hmmmm, ways to keep Mr. Stumbo busy....
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
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prettyday
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 1102
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
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I am so angry right now it's hard to post. I have felt this pressure for years now. It's why I spent many years without meds and in pain. They want you to admit you're doing something wrong. I am sick of it. I have such anger right now...why isn't MR. STUMBO working on making meds more available to pain patients so everyone knows how everyone is doing? Because that means taking on the health care system, and like or dislike Hilary Clinton, no one will ever forget the way the industry wheeled out the big guns...
Do you all realize what they want?
They want you to stop washing yourself.
To stop feeding your kids.
They want you to live in a filthy abandoned apartment, and not notice the stink.
They want you to be willing to sell yourself, man or woman, for any small fix.
They want you to steal.
They want you to go furtively, glancing around to a doctor who is not trying to help, maybe, but is so crooked that of course you know why he is there, so you can be punished by junkie withdrawals when they swoop down and remove this cancerous blight of an office from an other wise healthy community.
THEY WANT TO SEE US CRY.
They want to know who is us and and who is them.
They want to drink their Scotch on the golf course, and feel drug-free.
Meanwhile a whole new generation of soldier, especially concentrated in the poorer areas of the USA, where "joining up" was the only way to get married, go to school, have a job, that generation is limping home. I can't wait to see Stumbo and his ilk do the tap dance of supporting our troops and telling young/men/women that they don't need meds.
Sorry guys. True, I allowed it to, many days,
BUT PAIN WRECKED MY LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I lost opportunities because of my pain.
I aged because of my pain
I lost my goodness of character before I learned to struggle and get it back because of pain.
I was RAPED, sexually, because of pain. Without the pain, I would not have been in the place where I was raped.
End of story.
So y'all excuse me if I am just a little more bitter than I come across, and Mr. Stumbo, I hope you are sent to Hades and when burning, told to be positive and think of something else.
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
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scarrlett
Enthusiast
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 202
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I hear ya Bama, I do understand what you're saying but look at my previous post. This was an exception.
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BamaChica
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/28/04
Posts: 278
Loc: AL by way of Cali..culture sho...
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I don't believe its an exception at all...I understand too what you are saying about the guys past, and using false names etc.. But UPS drivers DO look into things and read into things and then tell other drivers stuff which could be taken the wrong way and innocent people reported. Like i said the sub driver I had told my reg. driver that I told him I ordered Birth Control and diet pills..which I DID tell him,and thats the only way my reg. driver knew and he also commented that he heard "I had a problem out here while he was on vac." so they gossip...and with it being such a touchy subject, Im just afraid drivers will start reporting sh*t that they know nothing about and getting people in trouble who dont deserve it...I cant say it enough times...nobody knows until they've heard it and seen it...only then might you change your views on this...I appreciate you posting this & letting everyone at least be aware and in the know.
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prettyday
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 1102
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
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Also around here the FEDEX drivers and UPS drivers meet for lunch! Aha lol I am not kidding; it's true. I was driving to the post office one day and saw them come out of this local restaurant everyone goes to; so do we; great food, great prices, and as I drove by the UPS and Fedex trucks were parked next to each other and I thought to myself, nahhhhh! Then they walked out together...so no matter who you use for what, chances are your route is pretty well discussed...No HIPAA here, guys...I think we are guilty of nothing and providing enough commerce for for more shifts and more drivers...they know their route...we know what we need to do...thats all there is to it...now, if Purdue gets a patent on some form of extended SUB or Bupe, then watch a problem happen...
But that's lobbying, in action.
Not a crime that anyone here committed.
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
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scarrlett
Enthusiast
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 202
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Well Bama, I guess we will have to agree to disagree in this particular case...Peace! I'm not saying that I do not believe what you have said happened to you and I'm not saying these drivers don't gossip about people they deliver to, hell, we've all gossiped at our jobs so why would they be any different. It's just the guy had already been arrested on the fraud charges, had drugs in his office, and one of the people he was trying to falsify a loan for was a drug dealer. Here's the whole story (well one of them):
quote]http://www.bgdailynews.com/articles/stories/public/200411/02/0euu_news.html
Trial for real estate appraiser begins
By Hayli Fellwock,
Tuesday, November 02, 2004
Testimony began Monday in U.S. District Court in the first day of the trial for Joe B. Murphy, a former real estate appraiser charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States.
Larry Deaton, a former Bowling Green-based mortgage broker who was accused along with Murphy and eight others in the scheme to illegally obtain loan approvals from various lenders throughout America, testified against Murphy all day Monday.
Murphy was Deatons co-defendant before Deaton pleaded guilty in the case, along with James Barnes, Larry Suddeth, Michelle C. Deaton, J. Christopher Janes, Jessie Dawn Rich, Joseph C. Janes and Robert J. Stamps, all of Bowling Green, and Tracy R. Cline of Las Vegas.
The conspiracy scheme allegedly included exaggerated real estate appraisals, false employment history and forged signatures on loan applications, among other things.
In his testimony, Deaton said Murphy, a real estate appraiser, copied appraisals Deaton gave him on several properties.
I called Mr. Murphy and asked him to copy the appraisal and put it in his name and he did, Deaton testified. The number was always what I needed.
But Currie Milliken, defense attorney for Murphy, pointed out that there were at least three appraisals where Murphy returned appraisals lower than Deatons suggestions.
In his testimony Monday, Deaton, who also pleaded guilty last month to wire fraud and six counts of obtaining a controlled substance by illegal means, detailed his business dealings from 1998 to 2002, during which the conspiracy scheme took place.
Larry Suddeth, a friend of Deatons who sold him Loritab pills, sought Deatons help to arrange a home loan for a drug-dealing friend, Deaton said on the stand. Though Deaton said he did not know the man personally, he helped concoct false information to ensure a loan.
Deaton made up information about the mans financial status and employment history, the latter of which was verified by Suddeth, according to Deatons testimony.
Suddeth was indicted Wednesday on state drug trafficking charges originating in May and June. The indictment states that the incidents were Suddeths first such offense.
Deaton also testified that a similar operation was conducted to get a loan approval for an employee who worked at Big South Realty under Murphys supervision.
The false statements in that case indicated the employee was making a down payment from equity on her recently sold home property she never owned. Deaton also exaggerated by about $15,000 the cost of the property the employee was seeking to buy, as well as the employees salary amount.
The exaggerated salary was verified by Murphy, according to Deatons testimony.
He said hed take care of it, Deaton said.
The trial continues today and the other eight former co-defendants have agreed to testify against Murphy if called upon by prosecutors.]quote
So IMO, these people were already wrapped up in something totally different than what most of us use OPs for. I mean, Conspiracy to defraud the United States!!! The guy was an idiot to be ordering anything when he was out on bond under these charges.
But it's cool. Like I said, I don't have any doubt about what you have posted, not at all , but this one does seem a little more on the extreme side. These people are not your typical pain patient.
Take Care!
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scarrlett
Enthusiast
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 202
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Prettyday, thank you for that open and honest post about your experience. It really makes me think twice when my back or knee is giving me a hard time. I truly feel for you for all you have been through. You are one of THE most kind, sweetest, honestly sincere, and compassionate people on these boards. I don't think I've ever seen you post a bad word about anyone here.
I don't think you sound bitter, with the pain you have endured, you have every right to be mad as hell! It truly sickens me to see just a part of what you went through.
I'm glad that have been able to overcome all that was stacked against you. You have so much strength...I'd have you in my corner anyday!!
Take care of yourself girl!
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barelythere
Journeyman
Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 81
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Posted on Sat, Feb. 05, 2005
Drug abusers find what they need online
Prescription painkillers now come C.O.D.
By Lee Mueller
EASTERN KENTUCKY BUREAU
WHITESBURG - To find the newest trend in prescription drug abuse in Eastern Kentucky, says Letcher County Sheriff Danny Webb, just follow the UPS, FedEx and DHL trucks.
Many of Eastern Kentucky's painkiller-peddling drug doctors have been driven out of business under the scrutiny of law enforcement, but their customers are now turning to the Internet for prescription drugs.
In recent months, drug dealers and addicts in Letcher County "have been wearing out our UPS and FedEx drivers," Webb said. The trucks drive up deep hollows and along creekside roads to deliver, C.O.D., neatly wrapped parcels containing pain killers and tranquilizers.
Attorney General Greg Stumbo yesterday proposed legislation to crack down on what he described as a flood of black-market Internet drug sales in the state. The bill, based on laws in Nevada and Florida, the only two states so far to have addressed the issue, would require that Internet pharmacies register with the state to do business.
Any packages of drugs would include a registration number, which delivery services could check to make sure the seller is legally registered.
Webb, a former Kentucky State Police post commander in Hazard, said he hopes the legislation is more than just "lip service."
"This has become a major problem," he said. "We've gotten rid of the doctors who overprescribe. You almost need a signed certificate now saying you have cancer to get a prescription for OxyContin here, but you can still call up Web sites on the Net here and have these pain pills legally delivered to your house. It's just crazy."
It's also easy, he said.
Replying to an Internet message, a hypothetical resident fills out a form and receives a phone call from a doctor, he said. The doctor tells the patient he is going to bill the patient's credit card $110 to $175 for a consultation, asks for pain symptoms and then sends, say, 100 pain-killing Lorcet 10s and 90 Xanax tranquilizers, he said.
Often, the pills are sent collect-on-delivery, he said.
It's ironic, Webb said, that it is illegal in Kentucky to mail a beer, but anyone with a computer can get controlled substances in the mail without seeing a doctor.
Kentucky's problem mirrors a national trend. Kentucky state police already are investigating Internet drug sales and are working with federal drug enforcement agents on a case in Florida, said Maj. Mike Sapp, who attended Stumbo's news conference in Frankfort.
So far, the investigation has shut down seven Internet pharmacies and prompted several doctors to surrender their licenses, he said.
At the same time, Webb said, parcel-service drivers are under siege. At times they feel more like they're working for Brinks than UPS or Federal Express, he said.
In Hazard, Trooper Bruce Kelley arrested a suspect last fall who stole drugs from a parked UPS truck at a convenience store on the Knott-Perry county line while the driver was inside. The suspect knew what he was looking for, Kelley said.
"These people who get those pills through the Internet, they know how these things are packaged," said Kelley, the state trooper.
Many of the pill packages list "Customer Care Center" and Florida cities as return addresses.
So far, Kelley said, such robberies are rare, although some areas of Eastern Kentucky average up to 25 prescription-drug deliveries a day.
"You talk to the delivery drivers -- they have to do their job -- but they're concerned about this," he said.
George Moore, commonwealth's attorney for Montgomery, Rowan, Bath and Menifee counties, said he has been surprised that a UPS or FedEx driver has not been killed by someone looking to steal the pills.
Drivers have reported people following their trucks or trying to flag them down before they reach their destinations, Kelley said.
"Most of the people who get the stuff are willing to pay for it," Kelley said. "They just can't wait for it to get to their house."
Matt Montgomery, president of UPS Union Local 651, which represents about 300 drivers in Eastern and Central Kentucky, said the problem is bigger than the public realizes.
He cited recent incidents in Powell and Clark counties. In Stanton, he said, police were called when an irate man went into a UPS facility demanding his prescription drugs. In Clark County, a man was involved in a car accident after he couldn't get his prescription at a UPS building.
"Our drivers are calling us and telling us, 'We're being pulled over on the side of the road and being demanded to give over their drugs,'" he said. "Drivers have called and said, 'Hey, we've been offered cash to let us get our package so you don't have to give us the proper ID.'"
Drivers delivering drugs now require recipients to show driver's licenses.
UPS officials did not return a call seeking comment yesterday.
Under Kentucky's proposed legislation, Internet pharmacies also would have to connect to the state KASPER system, which tracks prescription drugs in Kentucky.
"If they ship here and we identify that they're not registered and they're not meeting standards of the act, then we confiscate their drugs," Stumbo said.
In cases where drugs are being shipped in unmarked packages, law enforcement agents will rely on information from UPS drivers, such as frequent deliveries and multiple packages addressed to different names at the same house, Stumbo said.
That would provide legal grounds for a search warrant, he said.
The bill also would require Kentuckians to have proof of a face-to-face meeting with a doctor within six months before the prescription is delivered in order for it to be valid.
Any entity found to be illegally shipping drugs could be fined by the Board of Pharmacy up to $100,000 or could be charged with a felony, Stumbo said.
The bill will be sponsored by Rep. Mike Weaver, D-Elizabethtown, in the House and Sen. Dick Roeding, R-Lakeside Park, in the Senate.
Weaver said he expects the bill to be on a fast track and reach the House Judiciary Committee by the end of next week.
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scarrlett
Enthusiast
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 202
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Good God!
"This has become a major problem," he said. "We've gotten rid of the doctors who overprescribe. You almost need a signed certificate now saying you have cancer to get a prescription for OxyContin here, but you can still call up Web sites on the Net here and have these pain pills legally delivered to your house. It's just crazy."
No. What's crazy is that you must have CANCER to be prescribed Oxycontin in the state of Kentucky!!
"In Hazard, Trooper Bruce Kelley arrested a suspect last fall who stole drugs from a parked UPS truck at a convenience store on the Knott-Perry county line while the driver was inside. The suspect knew what he was looking for, Kelley said."
"Drivers have reported people following their trucks or trying to flag them down before they reach their destinations, Kelley said."
"He cited recent incidents in Powell and Clark counties. In Stanton, he said, police were called when an irate man went into a UPS facility demanding his prescription drugs. In Clark County, a man was involved in a car accident after he couldn't get his prescription at a UPS building."
""Our drivers are calling us and telling us, 'We're being pulled over on the side of the road and being demanded to give over their drugs,'" he said. "Drivers have called and said, 'Hey, we've been offered cash to let us get our package so you don't have to give us the proper ID.'"
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You know what, if I was a driver, I'd want it to end too if people are acting like THAT!!!! Like I've said & MANY other have said before, the stupid ones ruin it for the honest people.
I do see both side of this but man, if the drivers are having to go through that kind of harrassment while trying to drive their route, I don't blame them ONE BIT!!
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prettyday
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 1102
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
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Thank you so much scarrlett, I am sending a big hug to you. But now I am scared and I can't stop crying; is this going to happen to the OPs? I live in CA, what will I do? We are really moving toward all this monitoring of in-state doctors...
I am sure I can find a certain kind of doctor, and it kills me that I wouldn't care anymore, if I could just know I wouldn't be in pain. But I would never know that would I? I would have to be scared between each appointmen t that someone had closed him down...
Reading this today, I can't stop crying, and I can't help feeling that all those people who don't have pain, who are so so "righteous" don't understand why I don't stop deluding myself and find a good heroin dealer so they can finally get around to putting me in prison where I belong, for not getting better.
This is PMS talking I think but still, I read what that Mr. Stumbo said, and I thought, how did this man get so lucky, that no one in his family has suffered enough pain that he knows how it swallows up relief of any kind...if he wanted to make me scared, he did...because I see that no matter what I say or do or accomplish, when I say I, I mean many of us here, I will always be a substandard human being. Isn't that up to God to decide? Not a civil servant?
I am so upset...if he thinks the way he does...that someone waiting at home all day for a package finally comes in to pick it up, and they are "distraught," and he only sees "high," when probably they are far from high, if they have to pick something up...And the amounts he quotes, MY GOD!!! To be a terminal patient in his area, I guess one would hope to go quickly...
Thank you so much scarrlett for all the kind and truly meant words you told me, but now all I feel is worthless. I see that in the real world, I am worthless. I am a loser. I didn't get better. I just feel like my heart is breaking right now...it doesn't matter how hard one tries to share that one is still a person...
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
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pecans
Journeyman
Reged: 12/18/04
Posts: 80
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They have NO intrest in the protection of ANY PERSON, They have intrest in the protection of a Place......their own pockets, and the THING they want to protect,.....is the Dollars that are flying past their pockets, into the OP's cash registers to enable them to buy More drugs to furnish their customers at a cheaper price than the USA regulated pharmacies. You think we all are living in a country OF the free FOR the free????? Guess again. We are living in a country where a FEW are free and that FEW are govenmental chosen. They have the wollen hat pulled so far down over our eyes it will forever be there, and will be the cloth we are buried in.
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barelythere
Journeyman
Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 81
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This is happening because of two things. The junkies chasing down UPS and FedEx drivers and basically harrassing them, and because we as a nation are allowing our civil liberties to be taken away. This guy supposedly ran on this agenda and he was voted in. The people of KY wanted it, they got it.
I don't want to get too political here, but the President we have now has set the tone for the country. We allowed the Patriot Act to go through. Some of us were scared but the majority of people said this was a good thing. It will keep us safe. When they passed that Act it was a very slippery slope. It took away a lot of freedom and many people (apparently the majority because Bush was voted back in office) were okay with that....Remember what Benjamin Franklin said, wise man that he was-They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Well look what we have now and life is going to get even more restrictive, believe me. Bush even said that because he was reelected, he knows that the American people wanted more of the same. He had a mandate. More of the Ashcroft type errosion of personal liberty. When the subject came up about making the importation of drugs from countries such as Canada legal, Bush was vehemently against it. Kerry wanted it. Bush wanted to continue this drug war with a vengeance. He said so during his reelection campaign. So this is what the majority of people in this country wanted and this is exactly what they are getting.
It's not going to stop in Kentucky folks.
It's too bad that the minority of people (and I still do believe it IS the minority) have ruined it for legitimate pain patients in KY and pretty soon for every legitimate pain or anxiety patient in the US who uses OPs. I've said this before and got flamed for it. But it's the truth. The NROPs have created this problem. Were it not for them, sending out all those COD packages to anyone who could go online and order without substantiating their need for meds, I bet this would not be a problem right now. I am not saying that all people who use the NROPs have no medical need for the meds, but what I am saying is that a junkie or a person looking to divert meds is not going to use a records required OP. They will go to where they don't have to have medical records or talk to a physician. So I wish that these NROPs never came onto the scene because they have ruined it for the people who have a legit need, who do get their records and send them in and who do speak with a physician. Flame all you want. This is reality as shown in these articles about the recent action in KY.
I've never run after a UPS truck or went into a hub demanding my meds or just acting desperate like that. What are these people thinking, acting like that? Of course it calls attention to yourself, and you look like some junkie, even if you aren't.
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scarrlett
Enthusiast
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 202
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It's ok hon. Don't ever feel like you shouldn't express your thoughts on this board! Think about it, what if just one person, someone who thinks like the politicians in Kentucky think, finds a link to Drugbuyers and reads what you have had to endure. Your pain, battles, stuggles, well, you may be able to change someone's mind!
I know when I found DB, I was just researching, trying to find somewhere online to get something for my back pain, because I was so tired of begging a doctor for something. Well, I stayed for a while, reading the stories on here and I started to get really mad! I couldn't believe what some people had to go through for RELIEF! For simple pain managment! It really saddened me. I didn't realize how hard people with very real conditions and very real pain had to put up with, and I believe these people who want to put a stop to it, have no idea either.
While obviously there's no guarantees, just remember that this is Kentucky and nothing is set in stone...yet. But it hasn't hit your state just yet. Maybe we can all pray / hope for a change.
Please don't ever allow someone else's standards determine who you are, don't let anyone tell you are a loser or worthless.
I will be here for you if you need me. And a big hug is coming right back to you!
I hope you have a wonderful night! And again,
take care of yourself!
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Trey_McC
Old Hand
Reged: 12/07/04
Posts: 411
Loc: Mars
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Quote:
junkies chasing down UPS and FedEx drivers
Oh dude you got more ba$$s than me!
I agree with you once again.
Trey
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SandyFeet
Member
Reged: 03/20/04
Posts: 116
Loc: By the ocean
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Quote:
I've said this before and got flamed for it. But it's the truth. The NROPs have created this problem. Were it not for them, sending out all those COD packages to anyone who could go online and order without substantiating their need for meds, I bet this would not be a problem right now.
I have to disagree
I believe the Record online pharmacies would still be under scrutiny irregardless of the no-record OPs.
The bottom line is there would be absolutely no need for any online pharmacies, record or not, if physicians were prescribing the type and quantity of medications chronic pain patients need.
Why does anyone use an OP
I can only surmise it is because his or her physicians is under prescribing or not prescribing.
Ya know, I really dont think doctors, at least most of them, are cold and unsympathetic to the needs of their patients. I think most have to answer to insurance companies and other watch dog groups; they are afraid to prescribe schedule II or II narcotics.
I believe the witch hunt for the evil online pharmacies is not because of the no record ones, but because of the social climate and stigma surrounding opiate use for pain management. Unfortunately, opiates are abused, which can also be said for so many other substances. Someone already mentioned food, and lets not forget the legal and highly abused cocktail.
We live in an uptight society
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"When you can't change the direction of the wind--adjust your sails."
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barelythere
Journeyman
Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 81
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"I have to disagree
I believe the Record online pharmacies would still be under scrutiny irregardless of the no-record OPs."
While I respect your opinion I don't buy that for a second. The influx of these COD packages is what created more scrutiny. There were just too many flooding in and it became obvious something was going on. This and all that $%^&^ pharmacy spam showing up in everyone's email boxes. The same spam that goes out to everyone, including legislature members and LE, advertising controlled substances without a prescription. The so called legit OPs were not spamming like crazy. It was the NROPs....all those affiliates doing it. I must get at least 50-60 of that type of spam every day. I cringed when I first started getting it and knew this was exactly what was going to happen. No surprise it did.
For all of you who think that this is only KY and it isn't going to happen in your state, guess again. This is only the start. This story is huge in KY right now. I did a Google alert and I am getting hits on a large number of news stories. First it was NV and then FL, but there wasn't a lot of publicity. But KY is really publicizing this. Other states will follow suit I am sure. Stumbo is making a name for himself with this one.
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bronwyn
Journeyman
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 53
Loc: bluegrass
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Yes, this is happening in KY - Yes there is an abuse problem currently in the state (where isn't there when the majority of the population lives below the poverty level?)
The spelling error was the newspaper's fault, not Stumbo's (He is the son of a very prominent and caring doctor from E. KY and a democrat!)
He is trying to get a hold of a serious problem in the state - unfortunately it's causing chronic pain sufferers more pain. (BTW - it has to be more than cancer now to get oxy, depending on where you are) There are issues on both sides! George Clooney couldn't get adequate treatment in NYC when he was having problems with headaches after an injury. This is happening everywhere, not just KY. We are just the most visible currently (last year it was Fl.) It's time to demand our rights, but also to be willing to show that those who demand appropriate care are not abusers!
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Bronwyn
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SandyFeet
Member
Reged: 03/20/04
Posts: 116
Loc: By the ocean
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Quote:
For all of you who think that this is only KY and it isn't going to happen in your state, guess again. This is only the start. This story is huge in KY right now. I did a Google alert and I am getting hits on a large number of news stories. First it was NV and then FL, but there wasn't a lot of publicity. But KY is really publicizing this. Other states will follow suit I am sure. Stumbo is making a name for himself with this one.
I have to totally agree with you on this. It will be a domino effect. I am sure my extremely conservative state will follow soon.
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"When you can't change the direction of the wind--adjust your sails."
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Trey_McC
Old Hand
Reged: 12/07/04
Posts: 411
Loc: Mars
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With billions of packages passing through shipping HUBs everyday I wonder what percentage of them are prescription drugs?
I agree with barelythere,
I think ROPs would still be under scrutiny regardless of the NROPs.
I believe we have all ready established that ROPs are technically legal because they meet the requirements listed on the DEAs website for establishing a doctor/patient relationship.
However, I do believe this will all change in the future.
I think the real issue here is that physicians associated with OPs only serve one function and that is to prescribe medications. Also, it is obvious that the only reason someone would buy their medications at these prices online is because their regular physician would not prescribe these medications to them in the first place.
I just called Wal*Mart and asked the price of Lortab 10/500 120 count for brand and generic.
Brand $136.78
Generic $42.68
I am a chronic pain sufferer myself and I know first hand how hard it can be to get a physician to write a prescription.
I hope all online pharmacies survive.
Trey
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ele123
Journeyman
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 74
Loc: MO
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Quote:
"He cited recent incidents in Powell and Clark counties. In Stanton, he said, police were called when an irate man went into a UPS facility demanding his prescription drugs. In Clark County, a man was involved in a car accident after he couldn't get his prescription at a UPS building."
So what! So a guy didn't get his prescription and he was mad - I would be too! Another guy got in an accident after he left UPS - Oh my God, the world's coming to an end! What a joke - these people are ridiculous.
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oscar1
Newbie
Reged: 07/25/04
Posts: 46
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I placed the BR 113 bill on the new/media section of this site and I have another take on the issue.
First of all KY can't even sit down and settle a budget for the upcoming year and in years past our KY State Tax Refunds have been withheld due to the fact KY at the State level had enough money to continue operating until a budget was passed. I believe we received our return around July that year.
Second I'd bet 10 to 1 this bill has so many "riders or admendments" added to it that it will take time for this to pass. However I do be Stumbo and a bunch of others in Frankfort want to make a name for themselves a could care less about how the bill actually turns out... I mean are they concerned that my 6 year old may become addicted to Viagra due to the fact he has access to my computer and knows where I keep my c.c.
As for chasing down the UPS guy or the FEDEX driver for your prescription that's strange. If I miss the UPS or FEDEX driver I just pick up my package at their Hub. I do this because they are on my way home and my packages never say XXXXXXXXXXXX Pharmacy. They state shipping company or another annymous name.
I do think however the days for online ordering from NROPS or even OPs are limited. The local doctors are screaming over the fact they are loosing income due to the fact their patients see them once and then order their medications on line so they don't have to wait 1 hour (if your lucky as most KY Dr.s double and triple book their patients), every 3 months for maintance medication check ups. They can't pay for their 2nd home this way and they're screaming to Congress and the Insurance Companies so that their patients will have to start coming back to them and in my case this is going to be next to impossible for one of my physician's ofc. You have to book your appt. 3 mths. in advance and I have 4 children plus a job where I travel a lot. Most days I can't tell you what I'll be doing tomorrow lat-a-lone 90 days down the line!
I pray this bill doesn't pass for those of us who use the system legally and am really hacked at those who have abused this system to point we have "Big Brother" breathing down our necks!
I have no problems speaking with an OP over the phone but I detest the fact I plus 3 of my 4 children will have to go to the dr.'s ofc. for maintanace checks and we have no insurance so we pay all medical bills out of pocket.
Also, I don't feel it will be long before other States follow KY's bill (if God forbid it passes) and then the treaty with Mexico and Canada good get interesting due to the fact I'd rather take a weekend trip and get a years worth of prescriptions or even medication instead of going to a doc. every month (kids included).
just my 2 cents
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