jazee
Newbie
Reged: 09/16/04
Posts: 47
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I've done a lot of research (and experimentation) with Benzodiazepines. It seems widely agreed upon that to come off long-term, consistent usage of these drugs you need to be on a gradually decreasing dose of long-term acting form like Valium (Diazepam) or Klonopin (clonazepam). These have half life typically 3-5 times those of the short-term acting benzos like Xanax (Alprazolam) and Ativan (Lorazepam).
It is my understanding that the brain will gradually compensate when using these drugs consistently for the long term. Therefore, it would seem to me that the best strategy for taking these drugs would be to minimize the amount of compensation the brain takes by keeping the level of the drug in your system to a minimum. This would lead me to conclude to use the short-acting versions once a day at most to avoid build-up in the system which would encourage the brain to compensate as opposed to using the long-term acting drugs.
I realize that of the Xanax and Lorazepam users out there, the majority are probably taking it 2-3 times a day which is a different matter. I also acknowledge there is a significant group that take them infrequently on an as needed basis. Everyone is different.
But in general, however, I've seen consenus more than once that the longer acting Benzos are 'safer' (whatever that means). I take it to mean, they are safer to take in the event your supply runs out and you cannot get any more of the drug, or you are separated from the drugs for some reason. The longer-acting would still have withdrawl effects, but less pronounced and less risk of seizure than unexpectedly having to go cold turkey after taking Xanax or Ativan 2-3 times a day for a couple months.
But it would seem to me, the best regimen would be to take the short-acting 1-2 times a day MAX and avoid the build-up that you would get taking Valium or Klonopin 1-2 times a day. The goal is to keep the levels of the drugs in your system as low as possible over the long term. Repeat usage of the long-term acting benzos are going to pile up to a rather large concentration in your system.
So my conclusion so far is the best way to take these drugs is to use short-term benzos on an as-needed basis, hopefully not exceeding 1 dose per day (or 2 very low doses). Then of course when you go to come off these drugs you switch to a diminishing dose of the long-term acting.
This goes against what a lot of people have said is that the long-term acting are simply the 'safer' way to go from the start. This doesn't makes sense to me as I think in typical dosage patterns they have a much higher chance of causing the brain to compensate and build up resistance to the drug. Am I making sense?
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Pocahontas
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Reged: 01/28/03
Posts: 208
Loc: North
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I don't know if my two cents will matter Jazee, but this is my experience.
About three years ago, I was taking Klonopin and abusing every pharmaceutical I could get my hands on. I was a mess! But the benzo abuse was wicked...Klonopin is very long acting. To come off that was awful. I had withdrawl symptoms for at least three months (night sweats, shaking, body tremors) and couldn't stand it any longer and went back to self medicating with short acting Xanax. I had no further problems with benzos until just recently, in October. I had been using Xanax for my anxiety and in higher doses when trying to get off Hydro. I didn't realize I had increased my dose to physical addiction status until I stopped taking it one day just because I was tired of being a slave to my pills. WOW!! I thought I was going to die! The grips of Xanax on my soul were EVIL! I felt like was couldn't get out of my skin quick enough but there was nowhere to go. My insides were trembling but my outside was calm. My brain was racing. There is no good way to describe this. Benzo withdrawal sent me very quickly the hospital for detox...medical detox. I felt like I would go into a seizure at any moment my brain cells just felt that raw. It was scary!!
At any rate, I will NEVER take benzo's again...over my dead body will I ever let that kind of w/d happen to me.
To stop the insanity of this, I had to be on IV meds for three days (buprenex and phenobarbital) and then tapering pills by mouth of phenobarb to shake it. Xanax took only ten day but it was ten days too long for me!!
I don't know if this answers anything for you. I was on both long and short acting benzo's and still had a very similar w/d from both although I remember not being able to tolerate the quick, short and hard sx of Xanax (short) w/d....
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~Princess Pocahontas
Aim for the moon, for if you miss you will always land amongst the stars ...
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jazee
Newbie
Reged: 09/16/04
Posts: 47
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Can you give some indication of the typical dosage regimen you were on for the Klonopin and for the Xanax. Size of dose, number of times per day typically, and about how long before you decided to try to stop?
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Nitrous
Stranger
Reged: 08/13/03
Posts: 16
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Very interesting discussion, I have had the same type of thoughts my self. I use Diazepam for between 1 and 3 times a week before bedtime. Dosage is 10mg-20mg. I do know that this means that I have Diazepam in my system all of the time but if I stop for, say, 5 days I do not experince anxiety. I feel ok. Could withdrawals be further down the road and begin even later or am I still safe? I have used this way, non continously for a few years without withdrawals.
I enjoy taking a few bensos once in a while and it helps me sleep when rotating my working times. I have also thought of switching to a short-acting one to get the medicine out of the system between doses. But I think addiction may have to do with intemittent dosing and the initial effect that even diazepam has right after taking it more than on your plasmaconcentration.
Please continue this discussion folks.
Patrik
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emtp3
Journeyman
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 64
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The amount you take and when, will definatly help with any WD's but for the lenght of time you have taken them, you will experience some WD's, I would say not as intense, your biggest one will probably be severe Insomnia.
Stick to Valuim, short acting ones will have a much more desire for uping your dose and then get out of hand.
This is just my opinion.
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Fighting the "DOOM Dealer"
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Pocahontas
Enthusiast
Reged: 01/28/03
Posts: 208
Loc: North
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Quote:
Can you give some indication of the typical dosage regimen you were on for the Klonopin and for the Xanax. Size of dose, number of times per day typically, and about how long before you decided to try to stop?
Oooh..so hard to say!! Back when i was on Klonopin about four years ago, I started out taking 0.50 mg 1-2 times a day rx'd by my doc. When I took it into my own hands, I started ordering 2 mg tabs and took it about 5-6 times a day. But then I was also mixing many many pharmaceuticals together at the same time. It was bad, bad, bad and I was in even worse shape.
Most recently, I had been taking Xanax occasionally, VERY occasionally for my anxiety and panic attacks. I bought it from OPs and used only 0.50 mg tabs and even cut them in half to use the 0.25 mg dose. I MIGHT have taken 1 mg on a heavy use day. I never noticed any w/d symptoms on this dosage until just recently in August-September when I was trying to stop taking Hydro and would use the Xanax for that reason. During that time, my dose probably doubled to about 2 mg on a heavy use day. Somehow, someway this was enough to make me become physically addicted and have severe w/d symptoms without any meds to cover it up.
Because those benzo w/d symptoms were so horrendous, I have no desire whatsoever to use a benzo med for the rest of my life. I NEVER want to experience that again!! It was that awful. However, I totally fear the day I get a panic attack again. I never enjoyed the effects of benzo's meaning that it wasn't a euphoric feeling I got from them...i just relief of my anxiety, the nervousness, the tremors from my internal fears.
Hope this made some sense to you....
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~Princess Pocahontas
Aim for the moon, for if you miss you will always land amongst the stars ...
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Nitrous
Stranger
Reged: 08/13/03
Posts: 16
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When I discontinue valium after taking 10-15mg 2-3 days a week for a while I can feel a worsening of anxiety if I have a tough time privately or at work. But if lifes ok, I get no such effects. That is also wd but from a better starting point I guess, which should be another big factor in the wd problem.
Or am I wrong? I mean, after a week of no meds at all I should have gotten my full withdrawal symptoms even though diazepam has a long half life?
Thanks for sharing Poca.
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jazee
Newbie
Reged: 09/16/04
Posts: 47
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Quote:
Oooh..so hard to say!! Back when i was on Klonopin about four years ago, I started out taking 0.50 mg 1-2 times a day rx'd by my doc. When I took it into my own hands, I started ordering 2 mg tabs and took it about 5-6 times a day. But then I was also mixing many many pharmaceuticals together at the same time. It was bad, bad, bad and I was in even worse shape.
Most recently, I had been taking Xanax occasionally, VERY occasionally for my anxiety and panic attacks. I bought it from OPs and used only 0.50 mg tabs and even cut them in half to use the 0.25 mg dose. I MIGHT have taken 1 mg on a heavy use day. I never noticed any w/d symptoms on this dosage until just recently in August-September when I was trying to stop taking Hydro and would use the Xanax for that reason. During that time, my dose probably doubled to about 2 mg on a heavy use day. Somehow, someway this was enough to make me become physically addicted and have severe w/d symptoms without any meds to cover it up.
Because those benzo w/d symptoms were so horrendous, I have no desire whatsoever to use a benzo med for the rest of my life. I NEVER want to experience that again!! It was that awful. However, I totally fear the day I get a panic attack again. I never enjoyed the effects of benzo's meaning that it wasn't a euphoric feeling I got from them...i just relief of my anxiety, the nervousness, the tremors from my internal fears.
Hope this made some sense to you....
You didn't mention how you went off the Xanax. By the description of how terrible the withdrawl was, I'm guessing you stopped taking it cold turkey, or reduced your dosage very fast, like 2mg one day, 1.5 mg next day, 1 mg next day, .5 mg next day, STOP. Wither way (especially with cold turkey) it is expected you would have really bad withdrawl. I'm glad I learned about the problems with withdrawl. I keep a stash of Valium in case by Xanax/Ativan doses become more frequent and higher to the point where I can't stop taking them all together so I can switch to Valium for a couple weeks with gradually decreasing dosages. The withdrawl is virtually painless that way. Although anyone with propensity for anxiety/panic, is going to have somewhat of a rebound effect if they've been use to being on these drugs. The key is to keep the doses as low and as infrequent as possible and if the doses are high or frequent over long-term, switch to Klonopin or Valium and reduce dosage by 25% each week over 4 weeks - that has seemed to be a good formula.
I'm at the point where I'll take mayebe 1mg Xanax or 2mg Ativan once a day, maybe 4 days in a row, then none the fifth day, then 3 days in a row, then skip a day. I recently stopped taking them for 2 days in a row. I did notice a mild tension on the second day so I'm probably just riding the threshold of potential significant withdrawl, but at least I know if I lost all my medication, I wouldn't have to panic for fear of going into seizures.
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Pocahontas
Enthusiast
Reged: 01/28/03
Posts: 208
Loc: North
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Quote:
You didn't mention how you went off the Xanax. By the description of how terrible the withdrawl was, I'm guessing you stopped taking it cold turkey...
I did stop taking Xanax CT and abruptly. I just couldn't stand it for one day longer taking it. I had been thru mild benzo w/d before but this was nothing like previously. I really wanted to stop the pill cycle i was on and not takie anything anymore so i just up and stopped it one day. Two days into the w/d, I went to the hospital as I couldn't take it any longer.
I never plan to take another benzo in my life for fear of that w/d happening again....scary shi**
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~Princess Pocahontas
Aim for the moon, for if you miss you will always land amongst the stars ...
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