SillyWilly
Stranger
Reged: 05/06/04
Posts: 12
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Hi, Im a little confused about this whole law regarding "doctor shopping". I know it is unlawful to be filled for the same prescription by 2 different docs-physicians and I will never dream of doing so. But lets just say the physician that I have right now who is prescribing me say, ambien does not carry another medication I need. Would it be unlawful to get a consultation from another doctor for a different medication? How is my name entered into the system that tracks down doc hoppers?
Thanks, Willy
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DonBarba
Enthusiast
Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 260
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I can't remember exactly where I found this. Somewhere on www.dea.gov
As noted it varies by state.
Quote:
The DEA is also working with states on Prescription Monitoring Programs (PMP) to prevent diversion at the state level. PMPs capture information regarding prescriptions electronically at the point of sale, usually the pharmacy. The information is transmitted to a state agency to identify doctor shoppers and/or other evidence of diversion. Sixteen states have active PMPs and another five states have partial or pending programs. The General Accounting Office concluded in a 2002 study that PMPs
have aided investigators and helped to reduce doctor shopping
For the past two years, Congress has appropriated funds for states to initiate and expand PMPs. Florida has applied for an enhancement grant of $350,000 to augment an initial grant beginning in January 2005. Use of these funds is contingent upon the passage of legislation during Floridas current legislative session.
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DonBarba
Enthusiast
Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 260
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Another DEA site bit of info
Quote:
DEA is also examining ways to deal with the recent rapid proliferation of rogue Internet pharmacies. During 2004, DEA intends to improve our capacity to identify illicit operations and better restrict internet sales of controlled substances through the use of a new and advanced system that will search the online public domain for illicit drug activity. We anticipate receiving $2.1 million and more than 60 diversion and support positions dedicated to the Internet diversion problem under DEAs Fiscal Year 2004 budget. We also plan to work with the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and other agencies to better educate the public and work with those companies that facilitate the illegal sale of controlled substances including commercial freight carriers, credit card companies and Internet search engines.
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pinkshirt1
Stranger
Reged: 02/04/04
Posts: 21
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hey sillywilly,
As you know laws are very hard to interpret, that is why lawyers exist. Laws also have "loopholes" and judges can set "precedents" that overrule certain aspects of any law,
that is why they refer to case numbers or "Doe vs. Jones" to win their case sometimes.
Unfortunately, I do not think the DEA website actually
contains all of the information we need -- the DEA mostly
worries about illicit drugs, kingpins, and just a little
bit about OPs. The stuff on the DEA website can be scary if you interpret it wrong. Do some searching for news on OPs and you will find a lot of conflicting information. And as always, be safe. Many people "claim" that the law say using an IOP is illegal, however many states in the USA
Wisconsin, and Minnesota have defied federal government by importing mass amounts of drugs from Canada because they are cheaper!
Pinkshirt1
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dman22
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 264
Loc: Everywhere
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I think Illinois is on that list too.
Quote:
Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich urged the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to reverse its "misguided" stance opposing states buying discounted Canadian prescriptions.
http://www.rxtrust.com/18_9_2003_illinois.html
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Deedie
Board Addict
Reged: 05/29/02
Posts: 347
Loc: USA
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I don't know. I was talking to my therapist and he told me it's not illegal. Can someone show me the law that says it is, so I can show him? I really think he's wrong. He said if I was getting the same controlled med from two different doctors it's not illegal. I argued it was. He said as long as you weren't getting them from the same pharmacy. ????
Does my therapist need a therapist???? lol
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Dee
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rkjones
Member
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 159
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I wish I could find it for you but heck yeah it is illegal! It doesn't matter if you used different pharmacies or not, you can NOT have the same med prescribed by different doctors during the same time frame! That is doctor shopping and illegally obtaining meds at its best!
I will try to search for it and come back and post! 
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Noone has to endure abuse from others, god gave us moderators for this reason!
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rkjones
Member
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 159
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I wish I could find it for you but heck yeah it is illegal! It doesn't matter if you used different pharmacies or not, you can NOT have the same med prescribed by different doctors during the same time frame! That is doctor shopping and illegally obtaining meds at its best!
I will try to search for it and come back and post!
Found It:
Quote:
Doctor shopping refers to looking for one willing to prescribe drugs illegally, or getting prescriptions for a single drug from more than one doctor at the same time and failing to tell each doctor that you are seeing others.
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Noone has to endure abuse from others, god gave us moderators for this reason!
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SillyWilly
Stranger
Reged: 05/06/04
Posts: 12
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Ok....I knew getting the same drug from differnt doctors at the same time was illegal but what about 2 differnt drugs from 2 different doctors-pharmacies. HOw is this stuff tracked anways? If I get meds from NWW, do they put my name and med in a database that can be viewed by the DEA? I would never to this either but what about getting Norco 10/325 and Vicodin 7.5/625 from two differnet docs? Even though they are similar they still are technically different jk Everything sorrounding OP and pharm laws seems so vauge. Sorry so curious but I wanted to get another med from another OP than the one Im using now because my current OP does not carry it and I dont want to be in custody to finally know the exact laws.
Thanks, SillyWilly
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pinkshirt1
Stranger
Reged: 02/04/04
Posts: 21
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If you get meds from your doctor, and you run out before the refill date, then buy the same from and OP is that
doctor shopping? I bets lots of people already do this, because frequently doctors under-prescibe. Is is against the law?
I'd like to see the actual law pertaining to this stated, if you could find it.
Pain patients have the right to seek appropriate treatment, and I will fight to end for pain patients rights. I guess if you don't want to fight for patients pain rights, then you should suffer?
Edited by pinkshirt1 (06/11/04 12:52 PM)
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IMSUSCOT1
Threadhead
Reged: 10/23/02
Posts: 868
Loc: usa
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doctor shopping is technically going from one doc to another to obtain like narcotics, filling them simultaneoulsly, doesn't sound like what your doing....
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DonBarba
Enthusiast
Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 260
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Quote:
Ok.... HOw is this stuff tracked anways?
See my post above re: Prescription Monitoring Programs
It depends on the state.
I'll see if I can find an actual law about this, but for sure, the DEA considers it illegal.
From the DEA site:
Quote:
OxyContin can be purchased legally with prescription. Abusers also obtain the drug illegally by stealing prescription pads at doctors offices and forging prescriptions, stealing it from health care facilities or pharmacies, and doctor shopping (visiting several different doctors, sometimes in several states, and complaining of the same symptoms in order to obtain multiple prescriptions for the drug.
From a Rush Limbaugh story:
Quote:
Under Florida law, doctor shopping is punishable by up to five years in prison.
From Kerry's web site:
Quote:
To help tackle the problem of diverting prescription drugs, John Kerry will work to support an electronic prescription monitoring program that will provide medical licensing boards and law enforcement agencies the tools they need to address prescription drug abuse. Kerry will also work to identify individuals who are doctor shopping and reduce the amount of prescription drugs obtained through those practices. Kerry will also provide funding for coordinated regional efforts aimed at cracking down on drug trafficking
One more then I'll stop
from the following link
Quote:
Prescription monitoring programs are being used to identify the crime of "doctor shopping" (which is a felony in some states.)
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/pubs/program/rx_monitor/faqs.htm
Edited by DonBarba (06/11/04 01:45 PM)
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Just wondering, why would your MD NOT have the medication you feel you need? just wondering?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I know in New York you can have as many different scripts from the same dr. as you can carry, but I was in a pain clinic and they were giving me duragesic, hydro and zanaflex then I went to a specialist and he gave me Avinza, well the clinic found out [through the pharmacy I'm sure cause I didn't tell them] and the clinic refused to treat me anymore, no big deal they weren't helping me anyway. Anyway they said the pharmacy they won't fill controlled substances from more than one Dr. without checking. I'm sure you can NOT have the same narcotic from more than 1 Dr. at the same time, you can try a different pharmacy but they all talk to each other if you walk in there all wasted out or its a pharmacy 50 miles from home that mite raise some questions, so if thats your plan I'd be VERY careful. I think they get brownie points if they turn you in.
Besides if the script is not a triplicate as of now the DEA has no way of tracking it. Rite now what I hear is there watching the Dr's. some pharmacies will not fill scripts from certain Dr's and they call the DEA. T
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SillyWilly
Stranger
Reged: 05/06/04
Posts: 12
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Quote:
Just wondering, why would your MD NOT have the medication you feel you need? just wondering?
Im sure an MD would...but online OP's dont and if you look at the ones listed on this board, you will find some only carry 1 medication. I dont have medical insurance and am not going to start using doctors and pshysicans prices until I get it.
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PIGINPAIN
Journeyman
Reged: 06/10/04
Posts: 85
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I had 14yrs in LE until injured and medically retired (fractured back and mangled knee) in CA last year. I have worked with DEA, Customs, local narcs, and state DOJ on various taskforces. The main issue is did a person use fraud to obtain any of the scripts. I have had four scripts at the same pharm for hydro related drugs from 3 docs; vicoprofen, Tussionex, norco, and vicodin. Each was for a different injury/illness and it was not an issue. I know of no "doctor shopping" law in CA. If a person wants three or even five opinions from different docs, no problem. The problem is that there are a couple of people out there that don't have real injuries/pain like us. those people go to five doctors, they don't tell the docs about the other docs, and they take drugs from all five. That would constitute fraud to obtain a script which is a felony in CA and most states.
I have made hundreds of arrests, 30% or more for drugs, and only a handful involved scripts. Of the scripts 90% were DUI or possessing someone else's script. The other 10% were forged scripts, stolen samples, and using scripts with illegal drugs.
Just be honest with your docs. Keep your own medical record with dates, name of docs, meds given, and effect of meds. Add every new doc immediately and give it to the new doc on the first visit. That way if you are ever questioned about why you went to so many docs you have a record showing that every doc you saw did not do anything for you and that each doc should have known about the other.
A bit much for my first post, hope it helps!
I am not an attorney and nothing in this should be construed as legal advice.
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SuseCue
Member
Reged: 04/25/04
Posts: 169
Loc: Tampa, FL
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Hi Piginpain..
Do all of the doctors that gave you scripts know about the other scripts you have?
I personally, have only heard of one person actually arrested for "doctor shopping". What I hear is more common is that the pharmacy will notify all of the doctors about all of the scripts and then it is the doctors who end up discontinuing treatment. I think that may be worse than be arrested in the long run..for some...for me! lol
I would never do anything to jeopardize my Pain Management treatment. I will not even accept T3 from my dentist! I just can't risk it. I signed a contract with my Pain Management doctor stating that I would check with him before receiving ANY medication from any other doctor. So the way I see it, it is not a "Legal" issue. It is a risk of losing all of your treatment.
Susie**
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Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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PIGINPAIN
Journeyman
Reged: 06/10/04
Posts: 85
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I agree it is not always a legal issue and yes all of the docs knew what I was taking from other docs. As I mentioned I keep a personal medical history in a word document. I started it when I started getting migraines nine years ago. The doctors seem to respect it because it is what they do, they document problems to look for long term changes.
Long term issues are best handled by a pain mgmt clinic via a pain contract like you are using. The DEA actually tells docs that the pain contract is the best way to avoid having their prescribing habits investigated. So if I sounded like I was gloating, my appologies. I just wanted to use it as an example of different meds, from different docs, at the same time, and it was perfectly legal and legit. That is not always the case. If I did not tell my docs everything then it could have constituted fraud.
Ps. The Norco was post surgery, the Tussionex was for the flu, the Vicoprofen was for a tooth extraction, and the vicodin was for migraines. Different tools for different problems, just bad luck they happened in a 45 day period.
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want2bcalm
Member
Reged: 04/03/04
Posts: 120
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I was glad to read your posts. Here is how paranoid I am. My dear, sweet, 17 yo son broke his hand terribly. It required surgery and he has 3 pins in his hand. Very painful--physically as well as emotionally since he is missing the whole summer baseball season and has played year round since he was 7 years old. I was so afraid to have his script filled from the hand specialist since he had received a small amount of 5/500 hydros from the ER. He had gotten 10 pills from the ER doc. The hand surgeon said no problem with giving him more but I didn't fill the script for a couple of days. After his surgery the doctor gave him some Percocet. Again, I was afraid of filling the script but did. Now I feel like a complete idiot. That poor kid is in pain and suffered needlessly 'cause his idiot mother was afraid of being accused of Dr. shopping or something! How silly was that? Anyway I'm glad to hear that you had the different scripts at the same time 'cause I have to have his wisdom teeth pulled while he has down time from baseball and they will probably give him a small amount of something. Thank you for your wisdom.
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
I wish I could find it for you but heck yeah it is illegal! It doesn't matter if you used different pharmacies or not, you can NOT have the same med prescribed by different doctors during the same time frame! That is doctor shopping and illegally obtaining meds at its best!
I will try to search for it and come back and post!
Found It:
Quote:
Doctor shopping refers to looking for one willing to prescribe drugs illegally, or getting prescriptions for a single drug from more than one doctor at the same time and failing to tell each doctor that you are seeing others.
almost there but not yet. keep looking.
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PIGINPAIN
Journeyman
Reged: 06/10/04
Posts: 85
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want2bcalm-Being a careful, loving parent does NOT make you an idiot. In this world of confusing laws, "jailhouse lawyers", and people who fall prey to the environment of fear that certain federal agencies intentionally create your response was normal. Having three kids of my own I know the pain that a parent suffers when their child is hurt/sick.
Trampy-On the issue of "Doctor Shopping" I understand that there maybe a DEA website page that specifically uses that term and says that it is illegal. I will not attempt to dispute that since I haven't the time to look through their website myself. All I am trying to say is that I have never seen or heard of a statute, law, or regulation in CA or federal codes that makes that a crime.
I believe they are using the popular street term to refer to a collection of acts that make up the crime. If you go to "several" doctors and seek the same drug for the same condition or several fictious conditions then you maybe in trouble. I conducted a search of "findlaw.com" for CA, FL, and federal laws using the term "doctor shopping" and nothing was returned, which means there is not a law that specifically refers to that term. If you search www.findlaw.com itself it refers you to the story below about Rush Limbaugh as the only mention of doctor shopping. The media is the one who is using this term more and more. The hypes on the streets have used it for as long as I was a cop. I won't bring it up again because my intention was to releive people's fear, not argue over semantics or get people upset.
Limbaugh is alleged to have been seen by as many as 12 doctors in a 3 month period, most of whom were prescribing C-II meds to him. Now that, if true, is definitely doctor shopping, but even he has not yet been charged with a crime according to the story.
God willing, pain free days to all.
"At the same time, West Palm Beach prosecutors announced they were investigating whether Limbaugh illegally went "doctor shopping" to obtain the pills. The practice refers to visiting several doctors to receive duplicate prescriptions of controlled narcotics."
FINDLAW.COM RUSH LIMBAUGH
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pinkshirt1
Stranger
Reged: 02/04/04
Posts: 21
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Those seem to be wise words, even if you are
"piginpain".  chuckle I do believe that we
should pay close attention to the Rush Limbaugh
"case" whatever that is, because he is either guilty
or not guilty -- and if "privacy invasion" is an issue,
then it would be an issue for anyone who
has medical records. Perhaps
this will be "THE" case that sets a precedent
for us folks who suffer from chronic pain, and the
anxiety and muscle tension associated with it.
Pinkshirt1
P.S. I also have a "problem" when a pharmacy or pharmacist
seemingly tries to act like a DEA agent ... for example now, you cannot buy sudoephedrine (sp?) off the shelf now,
(at most stores in my town)
because most drugstores keep it behind the counter now.
Wal-Mart even makes you sign your name every time you buy some, with the date, the dosage, and how many boxes you buy. I mean I have nothing to hide, I rarely use it except in allergy season, but it just irks me like crazy that I have to be "monitored" for using an over the counter drug. When oh when, will the madness stop?
Edited by pinkshirt1 (06/14/04 04:41 PM)
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rkjones
Member
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 159
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want2bcalm, you were pefectly fine filling those scripts when you got them due to the circumstances of his injuries or illness at the time. I had a 9mm kidney stone and my urologist gave me
vicodin ES on day 1- on
Day 3 my pain escalated to a 10 called my urologist and was told to go to ER, there i was given IV dilaudid and a script for Dilaudid for breakthrough pain every 4 hours and told my urologist wanted to see me in 2 days if stone had not passed.
On DAY 5 my urologist wrote script for Oxyxontin 15 twice a day and told to continue with dilaudid for breakthrough pain.
Day 7 one oxy left, still not passed stone so he again gave script for another 15 oxycontin and told I could take 2 twice a day.
Day 10- passed stone!!!I was kinda freaked about filling all these scripts for various strong pain meds a few days apart but I did because the doctors told me I could. Get this I was filling them at walgreens, the notoriuos i will report or not fill place. I had no problem with them except they said they didn't carry or fill dilaudid so I got that filled at the Hospital pharmacy of the ER doc that wrote it with no problem.
So if it is a valid problem and the docotrs are aware of each others scripts then you should be good to go. I am sure ole walgreens made a phone call and checked up on me with the urologist with the script from the different doc and also the few days and new stronger pain med scripts.
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Noone has to endure abuse from others, god gave us moderators for this reason!
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IMSUSCOT1
Threadhead
Reged: 10/23/02
Posts: 868
Loc: usa
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Just FYI, there is no 15 mg oxycontin..it comes in 10, 20, 40 80 & 120 mgs...so not quite sure what you were taking...but at least you had a doc willing to prescribe adequately to tret you pain..amazing!
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want2bcalm
Member
Reged: 04/03/04
Posts: 120
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Just wanted everyone to know that my son is doing much better. Has a hard cast on now and hasn't taken or needed anything for pain for almost 2 weeks now. Yeah! I was kind of worried about him since not only was his hand painful but the psychological pain of not being able to play is pretty bad too. I wrote on another thread about a boy from our old hometown that is older than my son that was just found to be "addicted" to oxycontin. He was started on them after shoulder surgery. He had been playing college baseball. He can no longer play at all and this set him into a tailspin. These kids live for their sport and when it's over....I just hope and know that my son will rise above it and be successful at whatever he does. I am proud of him.
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PIGINPAIN
Journeyman
Reged: 06/10/04
Posts: 85
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Quote: "I also have a "problem" when a pharmacy or pharmacist
seemingly tries to act like a DEA agent ... for example now, you cannot buy sudoephedrine (sp?) off the shelf now,
(at most stores in my town)
because most drugstores keep it behind the counter now. "
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This is done because morons out there steal 20 to 30 packs off of the shelve at a time, from several stores, to make methamphetamine, the most abused illicit drug. They put it behind the counter to prevent theft of the product and try to cut down on the amount of poison on our streets. Having to sign my name for cold medicine is a SMALL price to pay to keep this toxic drug in lower supply in my community. Anyone want to increase meth production near their house??
Want2bcalm- Glad your son is doing well. You appear to have a solid head on your shoulders and that usually translates into a good kid. You know what bugs me the most are the parents, NOT you, who say "why does my 'innocent' child use drugs" or "Not my kid" or the ever popular "How do I prevent criminal behavior and drug use in my child?"
They ask, but then don't use common sense in applying the rules, assuming they listen at all. You had concerns, asked for thoughts, made your own decision, and acted! If half of the parents of kids I have arrested over the years did what you did, I would not have had to put their children in prison when they turned 18 or delivered death notification to many others. Keep up the good work  ...
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Sweetz
Diamond Mind
Reged: 05/11/02
Posts: 764
Loc: Texas!
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Yep, gotta agree with you there. Why, I'm old enough to remember when Advil was prescription, along with Actifed, and Sudafed. Getting it from behind the counter sure beats the heck outta having to see a doc for it.
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"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."
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Jewels2
Board Addict
Reged: 04/25/02
Posts: 391
Loc: PNW
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I am pretty sure he meant he got a prescription for 15 (count) oxycontin. At least that's what I read into it.
Jewels
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