antique
Banned
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 215
Loc: east coast
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There was a good thread entitled hydro for stress relief and there was some discussion about use of opiates for treating depression. From my own experience and reading about others' experiences, it seems that hydro does lift your spirits while you're taking it, but as your tolerance builds or as you stop taking it, the rebound effect is pretty severe depression. I would like to know what other DB'ers have read or experienced on this subject. Also, are there any good painkillers that do not aggravate or bring on depression when you stop taking them?
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antique
Banned
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 215
Loc: east coast
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Also, in the previous thread I mentioned, yawkaw3 mentioned that low doses of amphetamines sometimes worked for treating depression. I would be most grateful to know some specifics like which amphetamine and what dose.
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Corrie
Board Addict
Reged: 07/16/02
Posts: 362
Loc: Southeast US
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I don't know of a painkiller that doesn't have a rebound effect of depression, but I do know of certain vitamins and minerals and amino acids that can help when quitting hydro and it's other opiate counterparts.
L-Tyrosine combined with B6 is a tremendous help (taken on an empty stomach in the morning), as is 5-HTP and SAMe. These have made a potential 3-4 week bout of depression after quitting hydro last only several days. Of course, I would check with the pharmacist or your doctor for any contraindications.
Corrie
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zorg
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/02
Posts: 559
Loc: Midwest
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I agree with Corrie, the L-Tyrosine is almost a miracle. It's not acute so it's hard to really believe at first, but comparatively it's incredible. L-Phenylalanine is worth a try definetely, as it is a precursor to many of the amino acids ( to tyrosine I believe), but do not continue use if you feel a "speeding up" effect. I get better effects from the phenylalanine since I believe the indigenous conversion makes a better supplement from precursor, and I believe this even moreso due to a lack of acute interpretation that would be interpreted as psychosomatic. Could be just me anyhow, but worth a try IMO since the science is mostly sound.
Amino acids amaze me more and more I read about 'em, no surprise the beneficial effects are so profound. HTH
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zorg
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Reged: 04/29/02
Posts: 559
Loc: Midwest
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I wanted to add that one might not want to combine antidepressants of any type with the 5-HTP, there is a potential for excess free serotonin (simply speaking) with an inhibitor and a precursor. 5-HTP has some INCREDIBLE documentation regarding it's purported miracles, and it does make some sense. There is still much research on how much is safe or necessary for X amount of depression, but I do know some dosing that was done safely was VERY high compared to recommendations. I'd really recommend using it as a lone supplement though, and definetely not with or within 2 weeks of antidepressants.
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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Just a FYI on the use of amphetamines in depression:
When you have refractory depression (depression that doesn't respond to other available antidepressants), you are likely to get amphetamines. Keep in mind this is not just two SSRI's didn't work and bam, you get a daily script for Dexedrine. You have to have a history of antidepressant use with a lot of them that you gave plenty of time to work, and they didn't. Generally you also have to have suicidal ideation and be serious about it. The alternative treatment in this case is to give amphetamines in low doses. You might get started off with Adderall 10 mg twice daily, or you might very well go straight to Dexedrine. Not all psychiatrists are in favor of this, but when you've tried several different classes of antidepressants that aren't working and you are "on the edge," so to speak, amphetamines are a very likely scenario. It happens more in mental hospitals, but it certainly is very possible as an outpatient.
Also, amphetamines speed up the response to SSRI's in most people. No one knows why.
-yawkaw
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Anglwink
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/03
Posts: 605
Loc: East coast
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Quote:
Just a FYI on the use of amphetamines in depression:
When you have refractory depression (depression that doesn't respond to other available antidepressants), you are likely to Generally you also have to have suicidal ideation and be serious about it.
yawkaw,
I really enjoy reading you informative posts. however the statement that you quoted above really bothers me. I learned the VERY hard way, that when people are thinking/suggesting suicide, one should ALWAYS take this statement serious. I know that when I get really bad with my depression, suicide and how to do it is the only thing on my mind. Now I know that sounds pretty desperate, but when I am that low, there is nothing that I can do to fight the urges besides putting my self in the hospital for my self protection. Please, just don't take light to people who are reaching out to you. Anglwink 
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"Believe"
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Anglwink
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/03
Posts: 605
Loc: East coast
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oh, and by the way...Most people don't believe that suffer from this depression, as I am ALWAYS smiling..I an very good at masking my feelingt & holding them in, this makes it twice as bad. oh, I have to get iff this thread as it is makeing me feel really bad. Oh, and my favirite line from others is 'JUST SNAP OUT OF IT" aaarrrggghhhhh I hate that! I wish they made a miricle pill for deoression! Anglwink
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"Believe"
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Anglwink
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/03
Posts: 605
Loc: East coast
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Quote:
I don't know of a painkiller that doesn't have a rebound effect of depression, but I do know of certain vitamins and minerals and amino acids that can help when quitting hydro and it's other opiate counterparts.
L-Tyrosine combined with B6 is a tremendous help (taken on an empty stomach in the morning), as is 5-HTP and SAMe. These have made a potential 3-4 week bout of depression after quitting hydro last only several days. Of course, I would check with the pharmacist or your doctor for any contraindications.
Hi Corrie,
Tes, these vitamins or herbal products can be affective for the depression after you stop taking the hydro's or whatever kind of meds. But as for people who suffer from DEPRESSION, these are not effective. You need a prescibed antidepressant from your Dr. Anglwink
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"Believe"
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antique
Banned
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 215
Loc: east coast
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Anglwink, other people were SHOCKED when my friend took her life. She was very outgoing and lots of fun. It seems that nobody saw the other side but me. She talked to me about her thoughts of suicide, and I took it very seriously. I was away the day she actually did the deed. But she knew that she could trust me not to do something like call the cops or try to have her committed against her will. I'm sorry but IMHO cops do NOT have a clue how to handle these types of situations and are more likely than not to make the suicidal person feel like they need to just go through with it. Mind you I don't think the cops have bad intentions.
Some well-intentioned co-worker of a man who had not shown up for work in a few days and hadn't called in, called the cops because she knew the guy had been very depressed lately. They found the guy at one of his favorite spots sitting in his van near a beautiful lake. He had been there for a while. I can only guess that he was struggling with whether he was really going to end it or trying to reach some kind of peace about it in his mind. Here comes the cop cars with sirens blaring. At first the guy just tried to drive away and the cops followed him, but then he just stopped, put his gun to his head, and ended it. Maybe he would have done it anyway but I can't help but to think that the cops' arrival brought an urgency to the situation that made the guy feel like he had no choice but to act. I wish there were some other agency or a special unit of the police dept that was trained to deal with these kinds of situations that people could call in an emergency.
There may be a few people out there that would tell someone that they were thinking about suicide as a way to manipulate the person, but I think that most people who speak of suicide ARE miserable enough that they are entertaining the idea. Whether they WOULD actually go through with it is another story, but if they are even just entertaining the idea, that is serious.
BTW, having experienced the pain of losing someone to suicide has stopped me cold from entertaining thoughts of suicide. If the thought pops into my mind, which it does sometimes, I think about the grief it would bring to people who care about me. I can't bear the thought of doing that to my dear old mom who has been through so much in life and who has invested so much of herself in me. I can say the same for a number of people who have chosen to be a part of my life. Yes, good ole guilt, but it does put a stop to entertaining suicide as an option.
Back to the topic...I know it's not a fun topic to talk about, but I am concerned for myself and others here that hydro could bring on or aggravate a nasty depression. Yet we have chronic pain that needs to be dealt with or it could bring on a nasty depression. Does anyone know how the various players (codeine, oxycodone, hydrocodone, morphine, darvocet, ultram, fentanyl, or what else?) compare as far as affecting depression? Are they all equally bad and the best we can do is take supplements? I don't mean that to sound like taking supplements is bad. I will be making a trip to GNC today to pick up some L-tyrosine, L-phenylalanine or both.
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gage
Member
Reged: 11/27/02
Posts: 138
Loc: south central U.S.A.
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thanks to all for this info. at least now i know its not just me feeling depressed when i take a holiday from hydro.
i remember after my accident dec99, i took oxy for about 1month twice daily. well when i stopped it, i fell into a depression like id never had!!
all this time on hydro and i never thought about it being the cuase of my depression(when im not takeing it)
i shouldve put 2and 2 together but for some reason i didnt!
i allways get depressed now for a few days when im out of hydro aloung with all the other Best if kept off the board!!
i too would like to know a good med to take for the depression side of w.d.'s. or a good 1st time a.d.??
i was on elavil once for about a wk. but stopped takeing it
becuase it made me have weird dreams. the doc put me on it for chronic pain, but i dont think it wouldve helped anyway.
they just wanted me off the hydro!!!gage
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Anglwink
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/03
Posts: 605
Loc: East coast
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I just want to say a few more things. first of all as for taking over the counter vitamins z(like sam'e) check with your pharmacist or your Dr. as many of them will out work the effectiveness of the depression medication itself. On one of my ant depressants clearly states on the bottle :do not take ANY over the counter vitamins without checking with the Dr first. and Antique, I take the hydro for pain control, if I am in a lot of physical pain its easier to keep my depresssion under control (I don't take the hydro for the depression) . For people that have "seasonal depression, or temporary depression (like grief) or depression for not having any meds, I am sure that the over the counter remidies would help. But for me, I can't. I hope this makes sense for all of you. Anglwink
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"Believe"
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singlesu
Member
Reged: 06/07/03
Posts: 143
Loc: kentucky
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I just got back into town and thought I would throw my 2 cents in here, especially to YawKaw. I'm probably just like you Angelwink. I've been bi-polar for the last 35+ years and have been on every anti-depressant out there. In fact, I just started taking Effexor last week.
I'm one of those people who are "drug resistant" when it comes to the anti-depressants. I take lithium and have never had a problem with that as far as taking care of the "manic episodes". But all other drugs seem to work for about 6 to 8 months and then just stop and I hit the "wall"
My question is to YawKaw. I have been to some of the best doctors and hospitals in this country, and not one has ever mentioned amphetemines or dexedrine to lift someone out of a depression and would love to know where you have gotten this information. I feel like I could write a book about this dreadful disease and all the medications for it and I have also done a lot of reading about it but have never seen any mention of dexedrine.
Angelwink, I know all about that phrase "just snap out of it". It's one of the worst things that you can say to a person who is depressed. Wouldn't it be great if that worked for us. And BTW, congratulations on taking that step by admitting yourself. I've done it several times myself 
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"I know I'm crazy cause I've got papers to prove it"
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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Quote:
yawkaw,
I really enjoy reading you informative posts. however the statement that you quoted above really bothers me. I learned the VERY hard way, that when people are thinking/suggesting suicide, one should ALWAYS take this statement serious. I know that when I get really bad with my depression, suicide and how to do it is the only thing on my mind. Now I know that sounds pretty desperate, but when I am that low, there is nothing that I can do to fight the urges besides putting my self in the hospital for my self protection. Please, just don't take light to people who are reaching out to you.
I'm not sure what you mean...suicidal ideation should always be taken seriously, I didn't mean to imply otherwise, if I did? A person who is seriously contemplating suicide should be institutionalized...not permanently, but long enough to get them under control.
singlesu- I know about this from being a third year medical student while doing clinical rotations in a mental hospital. For a patient who has suicidal ideation beyond the norm for Major Depressive Disorsder and has refractory depression, amphetamines will come into play. It is considered a last resort (before ECT, of course). If you're interested, check out a newer clinical psychopharmacology textbook. Not all psychiatrists are willing to do it, and they're not likely to tell patients unless absolutely neccessary. Have you been on MAOI's? If a patient is not hospitalized and refuses MAOI's, amphetamines are a strong possibility. Next time you see a psychiatrist, discuss this with him/her, not as treatment for you because requesting amphetamines always comes off as drug-seeking behavior, just mention that you know of someone who was prescribed it and see their opinion.
Good luck.
-yawkaw
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antique
Banned
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 215
Loc: east coast
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Next time someone says to you to just snap out of it...respond with OMYGOD! I never thought of that! I'm healed! Thank you ... you saved my life!!! 
I guess we've all had some paragon of compassion and wisdom utter those words to us at some time.
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kimbell1
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/20/03
Posts: 274
Loc: Route 666, Painville, Texas 6...
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I believe at one time, pain killers were used to treat depression and today anti depressants are used to help with pain problems.
There is not a hard, fast set of rules anymore than there is a painkiller that works for everyone or an anti depressant that works for all that are clinically depressed.
Those that suffer both depression and pain issues have a hard road to travel. Add all the government intrusion into our lives and into our doctors' lives, it's enough to make one leave this country. I understand Canada is nice and sane
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Paranoia is just hightened awareness.
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intrepid1
Member
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 177
Loc: West Coast
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After a couple of weeks on The Floor (a decade or so ago), I was offered the choice between ECT and augmenting my ADs with Ritalin. This was after trying everything but MAOIs, and augmentation with lithium, then thyroid hormone. It was not a difficult decision. Then I got a new doc who did not believe in Ritalin, and substituted Wellbutrin. Thank God for OPs.
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No time for procrastination, but I'll get around to it eventually.
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antique
Banned
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 215
Loc: east coast
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Intrepid, if you don't mind me asking, what AD were you taking with the ritalin? How well did the combo work? Any nasty side effects? Do you have bipolar or depression? Do you have any problems with pain meds bringing on depression? I hope you don't mind my nosiness; I just want to know what other people experience with pain meds and what works for them on depression.
I probably should have titled the thread depression caused by hydro because that's what I am trying to get at. I may have to figure out some other way to treat my pain if hydro is going to disrupt my somewhat fragile mental balance.
Please tell me more about your experience.
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