alphaman
Member
Reged: 06/07/03
Posts: 154
Loc: pittsburgh
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Ok i know double dipping gets alot of talk. For 1 i would like to see someone post anything in referance to someone getting in trouble or even arressted for it. I see so many others posting about how these OP's are working in a "grey" area of the law. This question also goes for the people posting the laws are "Vauge". Please post a link to a site about the DEA's laws against this. I think it was 14stones who wrote in the recent DEA post about the laws if it was please post a site where you read them. I know i did a search on google and came up with nothing. I am not trying to bash anyone on this subject, i would just like to see some proof instead of just talk.
Now i for one havent had to DD(yet) there may be a day i need to. In my opinion everyone here that is old enough to order off these sites are adults,and should be allowed to put whatever they want in there own body. So basically i just want to see some proof on someone getting arressted for DD and some sites on the so called "vauge" laws these OP's are working under......THANX heath 
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Never Be so Open-Minded that your Brains Fall Out
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LumbarSpasm
Silent Chaos
Reged: 05/07/02
Posts: 1538
Loc: USA
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You need Trampy (  ). Federal law is one thing. Look up your state laws for what statutes apply to you under state regulation. Usually under Health and Human Services, or Pharmacy regs.
Hope this helps.
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LumbarSpasm
Or just a pain in the butt?!
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PAIDFO
Member
Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 148
Loc: southeast
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You might wanna try this link.You might find some info there.I hope it helps. https://drugbuyers.com/members/us_law/ 
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"The difference between Ordinary and Extraordinary is the Little Extra"
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zorg
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/02
Posts: 559
Loc: Midwest
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kicking a dead horse.... most of the substantive stuff has been churned up elsewhere on the board....
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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A few states have laws that make it illegal to get the same controlled substance from more than one doctor at the same time. Others have similar laws that require you to tell your doctor if you're getting that drug or any controlled substances from another doctor.
But EVERY state makes it a crime to use false pretenses to obtain controlled substances. So if you fill out an OP order form where it asks you if you are getting this drug from another source, or what drugs are you taking, or any other false information ... and you lie, then it's at least a misdemeanor crime in every state. You commit the crime in the state where you filled out that web form and are subject to your state's laws when you place the order. You also MIGHT be subject to the drug laws of the state in which the pharmacy is located, but they OP would be the one to take the heat in almost all cases.
People here talk all the time about "the law" against "double dipping" but i've never seen anyone post the actual text of any such law. Such a law might exist somewhere, but i haven't seen it.
You can probably find your state's statutes ("State Laws--Cases and Codes") by following links from www.findlaw.com. It's often hard to find what you're looking for and some of the state statutes are not easily searched. It's also possible that the state is not keeping their list of statutes up to date. Ignorance of the law is no defense. A judge or jury could take someone's dilgence into account in passing sentence, but it should not affect guilt or innocence. Lawyers depend on the database kept by Westlaw for the freedom of their clients, because Westlaw does a very good job of keeping it up to date. Unfortunately, a Westlaw subscription is very expensive. Lexis-Nexis is not as good as Westlaw for legal research, but it's better than any free search engine.
If you do search your state's stautues on the state's web site (if they even have them on-line), such a law could be found under Criminal Code, Public Health and Safety, Medical and Pharmacy Practice, Controlled Substances, or another section of the state's statutes. Good Luck!
Searching the U.S. Code and the federal appeals court cases that interpreted those laws is a lot simpler than doing the same for most states. One thing is beyond doubt. There is no federal law against "double dipping." The only possible charge would be illegal possession of a controlled substance, which is a federal misdemeanor (with no priors).
Trampy
P.S. Sonick is right. No search engine can be relied upon to show that such a state law does not exist. Most state legislatures have a legal library and they usually post its phone number on a state web site. Sometimes they give the phone number of a research department. If you get information from them over the phone or with a visit it's probably reliable. If the state library gives you the number of the statute over the phone, then you can probably find it on the web or by going to a public library and looking through the published statutes. New laws, though, can take some time to make their way into publication. There's also the possibility of an Emergency Order by a state official that made something illegal; those would be very hard to find (but give much better grounds for claiming ignorance as a defense). The back-office research work of a lawyer can be substantial and that is one reason good lawyers are expensive (if they're not working pro bono). The bottom line is that it's hard to prove a negative. Just because you did not find a law does not mean it doesn't exist.
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Your mileage may vary ...
Edited by Trampy (09/14/03 12:27 AM)
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zorg
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/02
Posts: 559
Loc: Midwest
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One other note..... searching google is not nearly enough to frame this broad issue into perspective. Most if not all of the state-hosted websites with all public statutes online, do not allow internet search processes, which feed the search engines such as google, to catalog all of the site data recursively due to excessive use of host resources; so the most relevant documents themselves will not be found also. Beware sites offering opinions but no letter of law. Some states don't even have the public statutes online, and some publish only portions. Even worse, sites with OUTDATED and otherwise inaccurate legislation, major danger. That is the main reason you cannot see a short synopsis explaining why there is often a precedent to charge someone under.... at a minimum there are 50 different variables for each person reading in the States, and surely more based on...... priors, penchant to be in the local radar, all kinds of stuff.
You'll have to assemble your own understanding if you want to be decisive about the issue. Obviously you're not at the current time, due to the request for more information or "proof". Not a bad thing, just indicates this is one you'll have to put some time into, the statutes are long and can be difficult to read. Often the online search engines suck as well, not returning the expressions you've searched for.
Past that, for precedent, a Lexis-Nexis search or Westlaw (does that still exist these days?) and other specialized institutions will reveal cases for you to research.
No gimmes on this one brotha. Have at it!
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zorg
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/02
Posts: 559
Loc: Midwest
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Cool link, thanks Trampy. I don't exactly want to do searches of the type at work where i have better access. I also just realized i echoed half of your post, sorry. Type first readback later
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alphaman
Member
Reged: 06/07/03
Posts: 154
Loc: pittsburgh
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Hey everyone i just wanted to say thanx for all your info. The sites that where posted are very helpful, and sonick i am a little familiar with westlaw and i think it is still around well Thanx again everyone anymore links are welcome.....heath
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Never Be so Open-Minded that your Brains Fall Out
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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I live in MN and had to sign a form at the pharmacy stating that I was not seeing multiple doctors for the same Rx (methadone) and that the State of MN was doing some sort of "check" on Rx histories and would be actively prosecuting "double dippers." (This is my quick version of the letter, but I could dig it out for exact language if anyone wants to know.)
Regards!
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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14stones
Board Addict
Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 336
Loc: On the beach in California
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I don't think it would be me that would support the argument that someone was actually hassled by any gov agency for "double dipping" I would like to see a post supporting your suspicion. If I did I would be suprised and apologize.
I do know that the OP's are very aware of people who DD. I had to have an order fixed by one once and after having to speak with the rep a bunch we became friendly. She told me that they were very aware of people who DD. That was all that she had to say about it. I never have nor would I so I don't worry about it. I do think though that those of us who come here to rumor monger are either sad and neglected people or people who would benefit from keeping people paranoid. The only thing I have ever seen here or anywhere that had anyone getting in this kind of trouble by ordering from op's came from people who ordered from either an IOP or ordered meds that are not kosher in this country. I don't blame the DEA for doing their job. I do think it is wrong when they get over zelous.
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Go that way really fast, if something gets in your way.....TURN! Always look on the bright side of life.
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alphaman
Member
Reged: 06/07/03
Posts: 154
Loc: pittsburgh
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14stones, I didnt mean to make it sound like you said you herd of poeple getting arrested for DD. I remebered your post off the top of my head about the how the law is "VAUGE" and i was just hopeing you could ask your friend for a link to where you i could find this???? I couldnt seem to find anything on it. but here is the post i was talking about.
Quote:
Do I think these boards get looked at by feds? I guess they could be. I am in the middle of having an estate situation settled and since my brother in law (who is a dep dist atty) is the guy helping me with it I thought I would ask him about the whole thing. He told me that in the state I live in as well as many others that the law on US OP's is vauge enough that it would be very difficult for the DEA or any agency to make a case against the person recieving the medication.
Thanx for everyones help.........heath
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Never Be so Open-Minded that your Brains Fall Out
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TLT
Board Addict
Reged: 10/21/02
Posts: 358
Loc: loc. usa
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Alphaman, I have not heard of anyone getting busted for DD through an OP. I have heard of alot of people getting busted for doctor shopping, and even getting arrested for it.
terri
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"RUDENESS IS THE WEAK MANS IMITATION OF STRENGTH"
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14stones
Board Addict
Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 336
Loc: On the beach in California
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Thanks for reminding me. I am glad that help was here. I remeber the post that you listed.
Glad you found your help.
Ni
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Go that way really fast, if something gets in your way.....TURN! Always look on the bright side of life.
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phlebomom
Stranger
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Ohio
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Hi all,
I am new here and it's ironic that I came across this message. I was arrested for double dipping so to speak on Wednesday. Actually, I was charged with deception to obtain a dangerous drug. I have never been in trouble in my life! Not even a traffic ticket.I am a good person and have never done illeagal drug, don't drink alcohol, and am an active member of my church. I still am in shock over this whole thing! All I did was try to fill a persciption from a new doctor at my regular pahrmacy and they told me that they didn't fill his perscriptions. I then took it across the street to another pharmacy and filled it. I did know that both perscriptions were narcotics so I never took them both together, but it was my fault that I flled them both within a certain time frame. It just so happens that this one pain doctor is under investigation for something and I think that may be why I was arrested. I do know it was one of the worst days of my life! I have not had any narcotics except for davocet and am feeling terrible. I have a couple of chronic pain conditions and I am scared to death to fill my perscription. I am a good example that this can happen to anyone. PLEASE, everyone be careful! God bless.
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TLT
Board Addict
Reged: 10/21/02
Posts: 358
Loc: loc. usa
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phlebomom, Did he give you 2 scripts, and you got both filled, Sorry I didn't really understand what you were trying to say. You said you took it one pharmacy, they didn't fill his scripts, so you took it across the street. How is that deception?
Terri
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"RUDENESS IS THE WEAK MANS IMITATION OF STRENGTH"
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IMSUSCOT1
Threadhead
Reged: 10/23/02
Posts: 868
Loc: usa
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Yeah, I'm a little confused too....did you already have a script for the same medicine from a different doc? or a different medicine from the same doc? or did they consider going across the street DD? This is scary stuff, so a little clarification would be helpful to many I'm sure....and I am sorry, this must make you feel terrible! 
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phlebomom
Stranger
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Ohio
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Hi again,
Sorry if what I said was confusing. I have just been so upset that I can't think straight! I had a script that my headache doctor has been calling in for me for norco 10/325 for over a year and a half now. Well, recently I went to see a pain doctor and haven't told my headche doctor yet about it. This doctor wrote me a script for percocet 5/325 even after I told him I had a script for norco already that I used everyday. I then took it to my pharmacy and they told me that they did not fill this particular doctor's perscriptions so I then took it over to the other pharmacy across the street and got it filled. I never took the two meds at the same time, but I did not tell my headache doctor about the pain doctor I was seeing yet because I wasn't sure I was going to continue to see him. There was something fishy about him and I didn't want to risk losing the only source of pain treatment I had for so long. I was wrong, but didn't expect to get arrested! I have to go back to court on Tuesday and I have already stopped taking narcotics period! I have had some problems with withdrawal, but it's not worth getting in trouble over! I will just have to learn to deal with the pain somehow. The worst part for me besides the horrible pain has been the restless feeling especially in my legs! Hopefully the withdrawal will pass soon. Please keep me in your prayers and God bless.
Donna
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TLT
Board Addict
Reged: 10/21/02
Posts: 358
Loc: loc. usa
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phlebomom, I had a friend that got arrested for Dr shopping, She was charged with 8 counts obtaining controlled substance by fraud. she was seeing multiple Dr's, and failing to tell any of them about the others, Therefore she had alot of overlapping narcotic scripts filled.
The DEA contacted her, and heard her side of the story, they told her that they had to present the case in front of grand-jury, and it would be left up to their decision of whether or not they would prosecute.
I warned her not to tell them anything, w/o seeking advice from legal counsel. Anyways she met with them, with tape recorder going, she specifically asked if she was going to jail, they told her they really only wanted to get her side, and to make sure that she was not dealing, and that if the grand-jury did prosecute, she would just have to go to court.
Six months later sherriffs office came into her job, and arrested her (how embarrasing).
Knowing her story, It's hard to believe that they would be able to just arrest you right there on the spot, unless you actually were caught red-handed with a forged script.
My advise to you, is to get a real good attorney, b/c if you told your pmd the truth about getting pain meds from other Dr, and he still decided to give you a script, then you did not break any law.
Terri
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"RUDENESS IS THE WEAK MANS IMITATION OF STRENGTH"
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Folksong
Member
Reged: 07/11/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Texas
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This all scares the Best if kept off the board out of me-- My PCP is out of the country(Iraq), when I call for a refill on my hydro, I never know IF it will be approved or how many pills the morons who are covering for him will call in. I called for a refill, and checked the next day at the pharmacy, there wasn't a script for me, so I assumed they weren't going to call it in...so, I ordered from an OP. Then, one of dr's nurses calls and says, "I called in your prescription". Now, it is too late to cancel with the OP. Order is already shipped. Could I get arrested????
Folksong
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wat853son
Member
Reged: 04/28/03
Posts: 150
Loc: USA
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highly unlikely
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Folksong
Member
Reged: 07/11/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Texas
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Well, the good news is(as long I don't go to jail), I will have enough hydro to last me a year! LOL.
Folksong
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phlebomom
Stranger
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Ohio
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Thanks for the info Terri, but that's exactly what happened. I got arrested just because of filling a perscription when I had already picked up the one that my headache doctor had called in. Like I said, they asked alot of questions about this new pain doctor I started seeing and I found out that he is under investigation. The pharmacy I had used for all of my previous perscriptions wouldn't even fill these that he had written. It wasn't just for a narcotic, but several different scripts. The police officer told me that the case would likely be reduced from a felony 4 to a misdemeanor since I have had no prior record. This means it would stay in the city where I was charged and go no further. Also if I go on probation then once the probation is over then my record is clean. I just have to tell you what happened to me today at church. I just happened to look up and who did I see but the officer who finger-printed me! After the service I saw him and I walked up to him and asked him if he was a police officer and he said yes. I then told him that he had finger-printed me on Wednesday and he remembered me. We talked for a few minutes and I introduced him to my husband and he said he would say a prayer for me and that was it. I just thought it was odd that I would run into him in a church of over 1,500! Oh well, nothing is by accident I believe. I just want this whole thing to be done and over with. If I have to go to drug and alcohol classes then I should be thankful that is all that happened. Hopefully everything will work out and I will get through this without any big punishment. I just hope I can deal with this awful pain!! Thanks for all the posts. Take care and God bless.
Donna
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IMSUSCOT1
Threadhead
Reged: 10/23/02
Posts: 868
Loc: usa
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Since Norco & percocet are two completely different meds..I still don't get how this is double dipping....I mean, I get Oxycontin & percocet (the same primary ingredient,....ones time release, the other not) was it because one dr didnt know about the other?
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phlebomom
Stranger
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Ohio
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That's exactly why I got arrested. It was because I didn't tell the headache doctor about the pain doctor and was getting narcotics form both. I had no idea that what I did was wrong, but I sure learned my lesson! I am still not on any narcotics and am having alot of pain, but I don't think I am in a bad withdrawal. It's just that the pain is back with a vengence and I wish there was something I could do about it! I really could have my script transferred from the pharmacy it's currently at ( they won't fill any of my scripts) and have it refilled, but I am too scared. Hope everyone is cautious and doesn't get into any trouble like I did. I will hopefully be back tomorrow to let you all know what happened in court. Take care and God bless.
Love, Donna
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Stacy
Enthusiast
Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 245
Loc: USA
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Quote:
I really could have my script transferred from the pharmacy it's currently at ( they won't fill any of my scripts) and have it refilled, but I am too scared.
I wouldn't risk it.
I would think it was your insurance that got you into trouble if it was the same med, but since it wasn't the same med, I'm not sure.
Of course, it could be your state laws. Are you in Kentucky by chance?
I really don't understand the issue completely, since you did tell the pain doc. Since you mentioned the pharmacy would fill that docs scripts then maybe because he is being look at this happened. You never know.....they might be trying to get you to testify against that doc and using this to accomplish that.
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kimbell1
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/20/03
Posts: 274
Loc: Route 666, Painville, Texas 6...
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I used to work in government as an auditor. Whe had form letters that whicle we saw them every day, they would scare the ---out of the average person that never got one before. Nothing threatening just unsettling.
If other states are like the one that I worked for, they can't literally keep people. I keep up with office news even though i am retired from that office and 2 people have quit in a month's time beasue of the job and they did not have another job line up in this economy. That leaves with this August retiremtns, 7 people short in an office that is designed to handle all of the Dallas unemployment tax matters for the field. Dallas has untold numbers of businesses which we mostly dealt with. Do you think about 25 people in the Dallas tax ield office with ever increasing work loads have time to make up for the people retireing and quiting to 'clear our desks and make one particular person's life miserable?". NO WAY
I assume (and it's a good assumption) that all other states are in the same boat. Lousy pay, people looking at it as a job and not a career to retire from, etc plus a real shortage of workers.
This is my point. Government likes a few high profile cases to keep others in line. Just like the IRS runs news stories around April 15th about tax cheaters who got caught. Ever see these stories any other time of the year? The government uses intimidation and these high profile cases are their main weapon. Simply put, there are not enough people in the agencies to conduct these investigations. i could print my job description and I can assure you that thee was NO WAY I could have accomplished all that I was supposed to do if I had a 48 hour work day. And the ones at the agencies are either ready to retire or new hires that are looking to land another job ASAP and neith group could care less. The few that MIGHT care are those with too many years to quit and lose the pension but are not eligiable for retirement yet. That is where I was when I was able to retire early via disability. But even I had gotten to the point, it was just a pay check and did as little as possible sicne if they want to pay 'Walmart wages', then after years of providing outstanding service with no pay raaises because there was never any money for people. I felt like my agency will get walmart service from me..
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Paranoia is just hightened awareness.
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phlebomom
Stranger
Reged: 09/15/03
Posts: 16
Loc: Ohio
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Hi all,
I want to apologize for not replying sooner. I have just been under so much stress with this whole arrest thing that I haven't been able to think straight! I did go to court and they reduced the charges to a first degree misdemeaner. I had to pay a $100 fine and I am now on 18 months probation with a 90 day suspended jail sentance. I also had to go to a drug assesment. I went this past Tuesday and the guy that did the interview and read all of my paperwork concluded that I do not have a drug problem and recommended that I need no further treatment or counseling! Can you believe that? After all I have been through with the cops telling me that I am a drug adddict and that I need to get off of the pills, the professionals tell me I am not an addict! I knew that in my heart, but when you have cops and lawyers telling you that you are an addict you start believing them. I went off of the narcotics and was really suffering for over 2 weeks. I have also been suffering with severe headaches (migraines) since I stopped taking my meds. I was able to get my script for norco refilled at my regular pharmacy and have been taking them as perscribed. They are not helping all that much, but it's better than having nothing to take for this pain. I will be on an inactive probation which means I do not have to report to a probation officer and I only have a record in the city where this happened and after the probation time is up, my record will be clean. That is very important to me since I have never even had a traffic ticket in my life! Only my family and a few close friends know what happened to me, but I am still feeling very upset about anyone else finding out. I value my reputation and I certainly don't want anyone to think bad of me. I feel this doctor I was seeing was the reason why I got into trouble. They only seemed to be concerned with getting information on him. I told them I only had gotten his name out of the phone book, but they didn't believe me. That's what I thought was weird. They acted like I had a connection that led me to him or something. This doctor is already under investigation and when I tried to fill his scripts at my pharmacy and they told me they did not fill his scripts, I should have known something was up! I am just glad this is behind me and that I went to the assesment. It really eased my mind about the doubts I had regarding my possible addiction. I now know that I was only trying to get pain relief and if I was properly treated this may have never happened. I just hope that nobody else has to go through what I did just trying to get pain relief! Hope everyone is doing well. Take care and God bless.
Love, Donna
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shotzie
Newbie
Reged: 06/21/03
Posts: 46
Loc: western USA
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Quote:
This all scares the Best if kept off the board out of me-- My PCP is out of the country(Iraq), when I call for a refill on my hydro, I never know IF it will be approved or how many pills the morons who are covering for him will call in. I called for a refill, and checked the next day at the pharmacy, there wasn't a script for me, so I assumed they weren't going to call it in...so, I ordered from an OP. Then, one of dr's nurses calls and says, "I called in your prescription". Now, it is too late to cancel with the OP. Order is already shipped. Could I get arrested????
Folksong
If your worried then don't pick up the prescription until your finished with the meds you ordered. It's that simple
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kimbell1
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/20/03
Posts: 274
Loc: Route 666, Painville, Texas 6...
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news about the clean record thing but I know from experience that you probably got deferred adjudication. There is a good web site but I don't have the address. Try typing on msn search engine deferred adjudication and Texas. there is a good forum.
But it does not automatically go away and it will spead past your city. But Texas recently tried with miserable results to get certain deferred adjudication sealed after 5 years, some immedicately upon completion of your agreement, and some have to wait as long as 10 years. It depends on the charge. The DA thing is a lie but most states don't descriminate like Texas does. You have never been convited but what gets you is the fact that an employment or apartment application can ask 'have you ever pled guilty'. Ajudge does not find you guilty if you behave doesn't matter. These companies have found a way around it and with the internet, checking out a person is easy and cheap.
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Paranoia is just hightened awareness.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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I have to agree with the previous poster. There is no such thing as a "clean record" when you've been charged with a crime (any crime--even traffic violations.) I stole a car when I was 14, (my only legal trouble ever) and had my juvenile record "expunged" when I was 18. I recently found out that it doesn't take a court order to get the information about that case--and if I committed ANY felony as an adult, that juvenile charge would count as a felony point already in existence. Also, the speeding ticket I went to court on and that was dropped by the judge is still visible on my record as a speeding ticket, dismissed. So, whether the charge was dropped or you were exonerated, it's still on your record and always will be. And some creditors, landlords. etc. won't care about the end result--only the fact that you were arrested for it (or charged for it.)
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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