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kearnan
Member
Reged: 12/13/01
Posts: 194
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I have done alot of reading on this site and others and notice that a med called Buprenorphine is used for people who are trying to get off of taking hydrocodone. I am at that point and ready to order Buprenorphine but does anyone know how it works. Do I totally stop taking the norcos and take this instead?
I heard it helps greatly with withdrawals. Can anybody give me an idea of how it worked for them? I would greatly appreciate it.
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painster
Stranger
Reged: 08/09/03
Posts: 12
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Yes, it's an excellent drug to slowly withdrawl from hydrocodone dependency. However, if you can manage to titrate (reduce) your intake of hydrocodone by 10% per day, you can wean yourself off of hydrocodone in approximately a week to 10 days or so and that will take care of your physical dependency. As for your psychological dependency, that's another story for another thread. Of course, this depends on how much you are taking. However, if you've found it difficult to stop takine hydrocodone by tapering off, then Buphenorphine (Brand name-Buprenex) is used in some detox. centers to lessen the withdrawl symptoms of mu-agonist narcotic addiction/dependencey. Buprenex has to be administered carefully and preferably with a physicians advice. If medical supervision is not available or not a viable alternative, it can be self administered but just make sure you are well informed. The best source of information is the Physicians Desk Reference (PDR) and other books relating to detoxification of opiates. First off, Buprenex is called an agonist/antagonist narcotic analgesic. For those of you who do not know what that means, whithout getting too technical, the antagonist aspect of the drug actually inhibits or counteracts the full euphoric effect of the drug and may immediately initiate full blown withdrawl symptoms if taken within 24 hours of a typical narcotic such as hydrocodone, codeine, dihydrocodeine, Oxy-contin, etc. Basically, if you begin taking the buprenorphine within 24 hours after the last dosage of your Norco or whatever narcotic analgesic you're taking, this time period would be considered safe and would not result in typical withdrawl symptoms and will minimize the most prevelent withdrawl symptoms, such as cramps, muscle/bone pain, rhinorhea, dysphoria, lethargy, etc. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS DON'T TAKE BUPRENEX AND YOUR REGULAR PAIN MEDS SIMULTANEOUSLY. DEPENDING UPON YOUR PREVIOUS DOSAGES OF HYDROCODONE AND HOW YOUR BODY METABOLIZES BOTH DRUGS, YOU CAN CAUSE SOME SEVERE SIDE EFFECTS. If you're going to stop the hydrocodone, do just that and then you can start taking the Buprenex. One thing you'll have to remember, buprenorphine is still a powerfull pain killer and you can easily bocome psychologically dependent upon it's effects. Physiologically, there's a potential for dependency and tolerance, but you may not become dependent and probably won't suffer physical withdrawls if taken as directed.
It's been my professional and personal experience that the Buprenex comes in 1 ml. snap ampules. Technically, the ampules are disigned for intramuscular or introveinous injection, however, sublingual administration of Buprenex is the method most widely used by detox centers. The ampule is broken open and simply poured underneath the tongue and slowly absorbed. This method of administration leaves little chance for physical or psychological dependence/addiction. The Buprenex may come in tablet form now but I've been retired from the field for some time and I'm not aware of current revisions.
That's probably alot more information than most wanted to know, but I felt compelled to convey my experience and opinion.
PS- Just for information, there are other agonist/antagonist pain meds out there that has the same effect and sometimes less side effects. What I would suggest, is speaking to your OP doctor at your next consult and ask about alternatives to the hydrocodone and suggest the buprenorphine. If that doesn't work, call any detox center and they also can provide some options. You don't necessarily need to check yourself into one of "those" places, but for some, the're a godsend.
Good luck and good health!!!
Edited by painster (08/30/03 01:01 AM)
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kittykatbone
Member

Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 150
Loc: City of lost Angels
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GREAT info Painster. i just ordered some temgesic for the first time from 24-7 (i'm still waiting for it to arrive.) i'll be tapering from approx 120mg's of hydro per day. any advise on the proper usage of the Bup is highly appreciated! i've been doing research bit by bit reading different things like the PDR, etc. but i think other peoples personal experience input is also invaluable.
any suggestions from anyone?
THANKS in advance ~ louis
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some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1230
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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I can understand why some detox centers don't inject Buprenex, even though that's what its directions call for. Injected buprenorphine can be physically and psychologically addictive. The withdrawals are not as bad as hydro or oxy, but they can easily lead to relapse if temptation is close at hand. So "Use as directed" is not always the best approach, if you can get the ampoules.
Sublingual absorption of the tablets is around 50%. One product insert says it's 55%. I would guess that the liquid Buprenex would be absorbed even less effectively because it will be much harder to keep from swallowing it. Any part of it that's swallowed is almost totally destroyed and inactive. You will definitely absorb more from the tabs if you use mouthwash and brush your teeth before taking it.
The best way to taper down from daily usage is a slow taper of the same drug. I think a lot of people fool themselves big-time when they just substitute one drug dependence for another. They get off one drug and then they have to get off another ... It's an invitation for total relapse.
10% a day is a very fast taper for someone at 120 mg a day of hydro. The higher your intake and the longer you're up there, the more time you will need for the taper. I'd say that if you're taking 120 mg a day of hydro, put a taper schedule on your calendar for a full month (minimum!) and STICK TO IT. The final 4 days should be just 5 mg a day. If you can get down to that level for 4 days and feel OK, then it'd just be the psychological addiction. Going to some Narcotics Anonymous meetings might help you with that. Here's a schedule to get from 120 to 0 a day in 32 days. Your mileage may vary:
days dose-(mg)
1-3 100
4-6 90
7-9 80
10-12 70
13-15 60
16-18 50
19-21 40
22-24 20
25-28 10
28-31 5
32-? 0
Notice that this taper starts off slow and then gets faster as the daily dose is reduced. Your body can handle a more rapid reduction from a lower dose but you'll find yourself eagerly awaiting your daily dose at the end of the month and it will feel really bad that last week. It's mostly psychological at that point but that's not to say you won't feel like Best if kept off the board. Days 22-24 and 28-31 will probably be the hardest, so try to time it so that's not during work days or be able to call in sick. It's psychological. If you can afford it or this has been a long-term thing, then take two full months for this taper and it will be almost totally painless and you'll have a much better chance of going through with it. Have some anti-anxiety meds on hand and also something to help you sleep. Clonidine works too. Good Luck!
Trampy
P.S. I would strongly discourage anyone from self-medicating with an anti-depressant without doctor's advice. You should see a psychiatrist for that. Wellbutrin and Effexor are known to cause anxiety and akathisia, which could trigger a total relapse back to the hydro and hurt you instead of helping you. Depression is not a simple illness with a simple solution.
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Your mileage may vary ...
Edited by Trampy (08/31/03 11:53 PM)
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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What size Temgesic did you order? The typical SL wafers available from IOP's are 0.2mg. The usual daily dosage for tapering with buph starts at about 16mg SL! Do the math. I agree with Trampy, you're very likely going to be just as successful tapering with hydro. In addition to some anti-anxiety meds, I'd suggest phasing in a good anti-depressant like Effexor XR or perhaps Wellbutrin or a combo of the two to keep your dopamine levels up, this helps somewhat with the psychological aspects - hydro is after all a pretty good AD. IMO SSRI's are worthless and the tri-cyclics have way too many side-effects, though low dosages of something like elavil (a tri-cyclic) may help with sleep problems as you taper off. Many detox centers give out 100mg of Trazodone to help sleep -- I've found it exacerbates nightmares and middle of the nite panic awakenings, but others swear by it. Good luck.
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kittykatbone
Member

Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 150
Loc: City of lost Angels
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Trampy, thanxxx for the great tapering schedule ~ i'm going to try to stick very close to that & give the buph a try once i get down to 20mgs or sooner if i feel positive about it. as far as scheduling goes ~ it's NEVER really a good time, is it ???
i've been cross addicted in the past to codeine & xanax as well as hydro at the same time, & had to go cold turkey unexpectedly for 1 week & believe me when i say that i've learned my lesson! feelings of all over sunburn, shakes, sleeplessness, hot/cold flashes, naseau, & the feelings that my insides were being sucked out by an industrial vaccuum cleaner assures that i don't ever want to have that happen again. those were only the physical symptoms ~ i don't even want to remember the psychological ones!
unexpected holidays suck! this time i'm pre-planning it with all kinds of things to have on hand just in case ~ lomitil, etc. although i don't think it's going to be that bad since it's only hydro.
again, THANK YOU for your valuable info! louis
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some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug
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kittykatbone
Member

Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 150
Loc: City of lost Angels
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Plotinus, i ordered the .02mgs of temgesic. i also have lomitil & clonipins coming to keep on hand. i hate to use stuff like wellbutrin, paxil, etc. i took zyban to aid in quit smoking & i think it made me a little flaky ~ i just wasn't me, & it used to give my sweats & bad dreams at nite.
tapering with the hydro is just the way to go i guess. thanks for the math lesson with the dosages 
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some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug
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kittykatbone
Member

Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 150
Loc: City of lost Angels
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hey out there! everything seems to working for the best today! i 've been rationing my hydros for the past few days (with the invaluable aid of my loving girlfriend) i've been at 80 on sun & mon, 60 on tues, & tomorrow i'm forced to suffice with 35-40... pretty rapid drop but i've been thru worse things before. i have an emergency shipment coming from TropicalRX on thursday ~ hopefully EARLY in the day!!!
also the .2 Tems (buph) & 2mg clonopins came today from 24-7 drugstore in case of emergency ~ really fresh ones! but really i think this time the quick drop in hydro MGs will not be as bad ~ just a little sore, lazy, & hazy ~ till THURSDAY 
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some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
P.S. I would strongly discourage anyone from self-medicating with an anti-depressant without doctor's advice. You should see a psychiatrist for that. Wellbutrin and Effexor are known to cause anxiety and akathisia, which could trigger a total relapse back to the hydro and hurt you instead of helping you. Depression is not a simple illness with a simple solution.
In the best of all worlds, you're absolutely right, Trampy. Unfortunately, it takes months in my area to get an appointment with a psychiatrist, meanwhile all the family practice docs are passing out samples of SSRI's like candy: Celexa seems to be the payola favorite of the past few months. Within past two years, I've nurse-maided a close friend through 10 day residential heroin detox (with buph) and into clean & sober housing twice. IMO the biggest threat to a quick relapse is the fact that the opiate-tolerant brain is unable to produce adequate levels of "feel-good" neurotransmitters on its own for several weeks. The addiction specialist doc at the detox center actually put it in those terms. Certainly akathisia and anxiety are two very common experiences of a person withdrawing from opiates -- but I'm not aware of any "clean & sober" house that allows e.g. Xanax in the facility, most will allow an AD. Of the AD's IMO Effexor works the fastest and the best and yes anxiety is a possible side-effect - that's why you want to start it while you're still tapering with buph or hydro or the opiate of your choice; to get beyond those side-effects, which in the case of effexor will take about 4-5 days. Like depression, addiction "is not a simple disease witha simple solution."
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