Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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FAIR USE, from
Link
Man Arrested for Selling Opium Poppy Pods on eBay
Fri Jan 31, 5:58 PM ET
PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) - A California man has been arrested on federal drug charges after he allegedly sold dried opium pods to undercover federal drug agents via Internet auction site eBay (NasdaqNM:EBAY - news), U.S. prosecutors said Friday.
Krsna Lev-Twombly, 30, on Thursday was arrested at his Sacramento, California home, after he allegedly advertised and sold 700 dried Papaver Somniferum poppy pods between July 2000 and this month, the U.S. Attorney's Office in San Francisco said in a statement.
Lev-Twombly's eBay listing allegedly contained a disclaimer that the pods were intended for decorative use only. A chemist for the Drug Enforcement Administration, however, said the pods as they were delivered to undercover agents could be steeped like tea and consumed as a controlled substance.
If convicted of distributing opium poppy, Lev-Twombly would face a maximum sentence of 20 years imprisonment and a fine of $1 million. He was released on $50,000 bond on Thursday.
EBay spokesman Kevin Pursglove said the company worked with law enforcement on the case.
"There have been a lot of folks who have found that attempting fraud on eBay does not pay," he said.
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Your mileage may vary ...
Edited by drugbuyers (02/03/03 11:31 AM)
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Sky_Queen
Fly Girl
Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 1962
Loc: Texas
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YIKES 
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babygabey
Journeyman
Reged: 01/08/03
Posts: 91
Loc: The Sunny State
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I am sorry...But what a Moron! I really don't mena to be rude but did he really think he would not get caught? That is such a public place these days you might as well set up a cart in the middle of a mall Anway Just my 2 cents.
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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There's only one species of opium poppy that's considered a controlled substance, "papaver somniferum l.," to be exact. "The "l." stands for "lactatum." And the Jim Hogshire case resulted in his acquittal because the prosecutor could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the dried poppy pods that Jim Hogshire bought from a florist shop and were in his possession were in fact that exact same species.
There are numerous species of opium poppy that contain some amount of opium akaloids. All the other species are 100% legal, in and of themselves (absent the extraction or concentration of morphine, etc., from them).
Maybe this seller was *claiming* to be selling the somnifierum variety. If so, yes, it was a stupid thing to do, because that would be advertising the sale of a C-II substance in a large public marketplace. But maybe they were just being sold as "poppy pods" with no claim that they were papaver somnifierum. To the letter of the law, that is not illegal. It's only illegal if actual p. somniferum is being sold. The burden of proof to prove the actual species is on the government. Maybe there have been advances in genetic technology since Hogshire's trial that would help determine the species. Four years ago, we did not have that technology. In any case, it should be an interesting federal trial to follow if anyone is near Sacramento or San Francisco ... wherever they hold the trial.
BTW, the last time i checked (which was a few years ago) you could go to most any seed company's catalog and find the seed company openly offering the means to produce a C-II substance: that is, "seeds of papaver somniferum." And the way the law is written, the only parts of the plant that is not a controlled substance are its seeds and roots. So, all those seed companies were accessories to a felony for anyone who bought those seds and grew the plants.
There's a popular misconception that the opium poppy law makes some kind of exemption for ornamental uses. Not so. Anyone who thinks otherwise should try to find it at www.gpo.gov or www.findlaw.com. It's not there. Until Jim Hogshire's "Opium for the Masses" book, cops could not be be bothered to track down (and pull up) poppy flowers. Heck, in my city, they are grown every year in gardens on state and city land. Still!
BTW, dried poppy pods used to be very easy to find, with sellers importing them from Canada and The Netherlands. It's been at least three years since i followed that little subculture. I'll bet this story will shake up a lot of people at http://www.poppies.org/
Trampy
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Your mileage may vary ...
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lovepink
Goddess
Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1476
Loc: NYC Metro Area
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One can still buy Papaver Somniferum pods at craft stores (including the biggies like A.C. Moore & Michael's although Michael's paint theirs), florists, etc. for decorative use in flower arranging. One only has to do a google search for poppy pods to see the vast array of papaver somniferum poppy pods available for sale at mainstream dried-floral and craft supply stores for use in creating dried floral arrangements and wreaths.
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Lovepink
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
One can still buy Papaver Somniferum pods at craft stores (including the biggies like A.C. Moore & Michael's although Michael's paint theirs), florists, etc. for decorative use in flower arranging. One only has to do a google search for poppy pods to see the vast array of papaver somniferum poppy pods available for sale at mainstream dried-floral and craft supply stores for use in creating dried floral arrangements and wreaths.
That seller on EBay (the story said) was selling papaver somniferum for "decorative" purposes. And my nearby university (on state land) has papaver somniferum in the landscape plan that they've been using for at least ten years. Every spring, students always steal and slice the pods.
If you read the law in its exact wording, all these sellers and that university are violating the same subsection of the Controlled Substances Act.
Selective prosecution is unconstitutional under the "Equal Protection" Ninth Amendment. Imagine the outcry if they charged every single person growing poppies with 20 years of prison and a million dollar fine. 
DEA's technology to track down pot growers from the air could be adapted to find poppies. Field agents could be sent out to grab samples from gardens for analysis, and everyone growing papaver somniferum could be indicted for felony "production." And why isn't A.C. Moore charged under the drug kingpin law? What they're (apparently) still doing on a massive scale is no different than what Mr. Lev-Twombly got arrested for doing (on a tiny scale). I mean, come on ... the DEA bought 700 pods from him between July 2000 and January 2003. So they had that "operation" going on for two and a half years? What a great use of our tax dollars.
And florist shops still sell dried papaver somnniferum pods by the box (usually 12 x 12, or 144, stems and pods per case). So that means that the DEA could have bought just one box from Mr. Lev-Twombly every five months. Walk down to the florist district in New York City and anyone can pick out pods and have multiple boxes delivered the same day. They could be doing that every week. I know this because i know someone who used to (years ago) assemble dried floral arrangements as part of his/her business. As far as they could tell from the labels on the boxes coming from The Netherlands, the species was usually claimed to be papaver somniferum.
So if someone said they were selling cannabis buds for "decorative purposes" do you think that defense would get them acquitted? Well, there's really no difference under the law. Selective prosecution is scary, because it means that the authorities can use a law to go after whoever they want. That's called Tyranny in some history books.
They do it for doctors prescribing pain meds. And they do it for pain patients. Don't think that this case doesn't mean anything to you.
Trampy
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Your mileage may vary ...
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Sky_Queen
Fly Girl
Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 1962
Loc: Texas
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I sure wish "they" would find something more productive with their time than to chase friggin poppy seeds around. Like go out and hunt down all the rapists, murderers, child abusers, wife beaters, etc. This story is ridiculous!
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DTZNuff
Board Addict
Reged: 11/16/02
Posts: 312
Loc: B.F.E.
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Poppy seeds are going to destroy the world. Give me a break.
I agree with you Leg. Why don't "they" focus on things that
really are of concern. What a joke!
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 Serenity Now, Insanity Later!
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baddad56
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/24/02
Posts: 281
Loc: Midwest
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Now now, we all know that poppies are much more dangerous than criminals. The poppies seem fine when standing still but when the wind blows, watch out! Look at the fields the military bombed in Afganistan, poppies can be extremly dangerous when disturbed.
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Sky_Queen
Fly Girl
Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 1962
Loc: Texas
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LOL!! Glad to know that Baddad. If I ever see any flying around I'll get a net
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Murple
Enthusiast
Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 204
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Quote:
There's only one species of opium poppy that's considered a controlled substance, "papaver somniferum l.," to be exact. "The "l." stands for "lactatum."
Actually, the L. thats found after the Latin name for many species is for "Linnaeus" who was the inventor of the Genus/species binomial system. Species which were given their Latin names by Linnaeus himself have the L. appended. Plants named by other people will have a Latinized version of their last name in place of the L. For varieties or cultivars (varieties are naturally occurring, cultivars are man-bred varieties) you'd have Papaver somniferum var. lacteatum L. or Papaver somniverum cv. something L.
As for the law, all varieties and cultivars of P. somniferum are Schedule II drugs, not just P. somniferum var. lacteatum.
The confusion comes when you consider things like Papaver paeoniflorum. Many botanists consider this to be identical to P. somniferum, and call it P. somniferum var. paeoniflorum. They both have the same chemical make-up, the only real difference is that the paeoniflorums have multi-petaled ruffley flowers that look somewhat like peony flowers. They may or may not count as opium under the law, but since they contain morphine and codeine, they still are illegal to possess without a prescription.
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wwwparker
Member
Reged: 10/14/02
Posts: 173
Loc: Alaska
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The main difference being the vast majority of these poppy seeds are dried, dipped in scented oils, allowed to dry, and sold as part of potpurri baskets, rendering them completely useless for any illicit uses...
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guitardude
Old Hand
Reged: 09/11/02
Posts: 421
Loc: midwest
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It's not seeds in question here. It's the actual pods that got him in trouble........
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"once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."
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Caveman6666
Enthusiast
Reged: 01/15/03
Posts: 218
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
The burden of proof to prove the actual species is on the government.
True technically, but not in the real world. If it were really true they wouldn't be able to arrest you and smear your name all over the media before anything is proven and you are convicted. The actual burden of proof is on the person arrested to prove his innocence in court.
As anyone who has been arrested can tell you, you're innocent until you are arrested. Then you're guilty until proven innocent.
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dsack
Veteran
Reged: 01/20/02
Posts: 523
Loc: midwest
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Guilty until you can prove you're innocent, you hit the nail right on the head. If it were wrong, why then are you immediately taken to jail and held until your court date?
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Oops. I said that the Ninth Amendment was "Equal Protection," but what i really meant to say was "Fourteenth Amendment": http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment14/
Selective prosecution can be considered to be unconstitutional.
Trampy
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Your mileage may vary ...
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Daycamp72
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/29/02
Posts: 283
Loc: Tara
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Right, Lovepink. I've used dried poppy pods for YEARS in floral decorations. Now, I've got a new idea!
As long as they are the Papaver Sominiferum pods, they can be dumped in hot water and used as tea? A product of the Netherlands?
Bad part is that you don't really know WHAT is in them.
Interesting thread.
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lovepink
Goddess
Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1476
Loc: NYC Metro Area
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Of course you can't Daycamp, even though steeping the pods in boiling water isn't what the recreational users do(its a bit more complicated), that would be a felony...stick to your floral arrangements.
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Lovepink
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lnd4508
Old Hand
Reged: 06/23/02
Posts: 450
Loc: USA
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I realize he was arrested for selling to undercover agents, but he must have had other "customers." I never saw that anything happened to them.
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drewsmerdel
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/14/01
Posts: 1137
Loc: Nap Town
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Last time I checked it was LEGAL to use any poppy in a "Floral" arangement. If the US govt dosnt want loop holes for people possibly taking advantage of the law, then get someone who knows how to write a law, and leave this man alone.
Someone posed a good Q, what about the people who bought them and are growing them in their back yard, now thats illegal.
Drew
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Are you hungry?
Are you sick?
Are you begging for a break?
Are you sweet?
Are you fresh?
Are you strung up by the wrists?
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Murple
Enthusiast
Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 204
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> Last time I checked it was LEGAL to use any poppy in a
> "Floral" arangement.
You obviously checked wrong then. Re-read the law. It is absolutely illegal to possess P. somniferum pods, regardless of your intended use.
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
As for the law, all varieties and cultivars of P. somniferum are Schedule II drugs, not just P. somniferum var. lacteatum.
Nope. The Definitions section of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 (as amended) clearly states that the "opium poppy" plant is one single species and no other: papaver somniferum l. We've been through this before. All you need to do is look it up in the Definitions section of the CSA.
Trampy
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Your mileage may vary ...
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Murple
Enthusiast
Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 204
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Quote:
Nope. The Definitions section of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 (as amended) clearly states that the "opium poppy" plant is one single species and no other: papaver somniferum l.
Again, you're missing the point. That "L." does not stand for lacteatum, it stands for Linnaeus. Please review how the Linnaean nomenclature system works:
http://enhg.4t.com/b/b29/29_13.htm
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
Quote:
Nope. The Definitions section of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 (as amended) clearly states that the "opium poppy" plant is one single species and no other: papaver somniferum l.
Again, you're missing the point. That "L." does not stand for lacteatum, it stands for Linnaeus. Please review how the Linnaean nomenclature system works:
http://enhg.4t.com/b/b29/29_13.htm
OK, you're correct on that point, but this is not a botany forum ... so nobody but you cares to quibble about what that "l." stands for. Yes, you're right about the taxonomy ... but still wrong about the law.
You won't find the definition of opium poppy in the CFR. Look at the U.S.C. That's where the opium poppy is defined to be "papaver somniferum l." No other species are C-II under federal law. That is ... unless they are processed to extract the opiate alkaloids. Zero. Zilch.
That was how Jim Hogshire got acquitted. Remember? He had dried poppies, but they couldn't prove they were papaver somniferum.
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Your mileage may vary ...
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Murple
Enthusiast
Reged: 09/12/02
Posts: 204
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Quote:
This is not a botany forum.
It is when you're using a botanical name to try and prove a legal point about which you are wrong.
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
Last time I checked it was LEGAL to use any poppy in a "Floral" arangement. Drew
Where did you "check" this? Try reading the Controlled Substances Act.
If there's an exemption in the law for decorative purposes, please cite it.
Hmm. Maybe try artistic expression covered the First Amendment. Poppy decoration is protected speech.
Just kidding ... but that's all you'll find in the law. Think i'm wrong? Go ahead. Prove me wrong with a citation to the U.S.C., CFR ... or even just one federal appellate-level court decision..
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Your mileage may vary ...
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drrondm
Newbie
Reged: 07/17/02
Posts: 31
Loc: Southeast USA
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The idea of steeping opium seed pods in water sounds too good to be true-and is! Opium has too many gums and resins to dissolve in water.One should be able to show in Court that,absent the right solvent,no oium could be obtained.Also,dried seeds contain no opium-only the milky juice of the unripened pod and poppy straw haave opium.I'd fight that case.
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All governments tend to become more contolling with time
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Before jumping to any conclusions about legal strategy, read about the Hogshire case. The Nation magazine had a good article. It was back in 1998 or so. The story was also covered in the Seattle newspapers.
The ineffectiveness of cold water as a solvent is totally irrelevant; heating the water can solve the problem. But the law doesn't care if it's unpalatable because of the gums, resins, and waxes that most solvents would release.
All that matters (under federal law) is whether or not the extract contains more than the specified maximum allowable concentrations (keeping it unscheduled) of morphine, codeine, etc.
Trampy
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Your mileage may vary ...
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plecosaur
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/20/02
Posts: 274
Loc: USA
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That's sad that the person got arrested as P. somniferum as sold in so many seed catalogs and many people, from the old lady down the street the the druggy up the corner grow it, but for different uses.
I have bought somniferum seeds from Ebay (~ year ago), but they were exceedly hard to grow. Could get them to sprout, but would not get any further growth. So I gave up on them. They were a decorative red variety. Most people say they are fairly easy to grow (following proper instrustcions), but I guess I had bad luck.
There were several sellers on ebay (10? 20?) at the time I purchased some P. somniferum, are they going to get all of them too? And all the seed catalogs? What's next?
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1222
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
There were several sellers on ebay (10? 20?) at the time I purchased some P. somniferum, are they going to get all of them too? And all the seed catalogs? What's next?
It's legal to sell and possess the seeds ... but it's illegal to plant and grow them.
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Your mileage may vary ...
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