zorg
Veteran
Reged: 04/29/02
Posts: 559
Loc: Midwest
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......the inevitable leeching of needed and prescribed pain meds to pleasure-seekers, of which very few end up implicated in an overdose situation....... or the fact that legitimate pain patients are denied relief every single minute of every day due to the small percentage of leeching of legit prescriptions and fraudulent buyers.
I agree, the latter is obviously the most offensive. I will never understand why bureaucracies evade common sense.
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malconfig
Member
Reged: 04/21/02
Posts: 198
Loc: Europe
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Amen to that, sonick! (& exactly the same applies to anxiety meds...)
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codeine is the next best medicine...
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wren
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/01/02
Posts: 284
Loc: up north & homesick for the di...
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most definetly the ones playing god with our health! physical and mental! I have numerous horror stories from over the years for myself seeking some type of relief for whatever situation,but as a parent I am sure most would agree to have a child in pain and be unable to obtain any relief is unbearable.Two weeks ago my daughter of whom absolutly refuses to go to a Dr. unless she is VERY sick,said in the middle of the night her sore throat had turned into an unbearable shooting pain.I immediatly took her to the ER and was dissapointed to see a DR. famous for not giving a damn about anyone seeking anything to do with any type of pain relief.He proceeded to tell her to go home drink alot of liquids and rest and then sent us a bill for 277.00 !The next day I got her in to see another Dr. who said her throat is a mess! and I explained thoroughly she cannot get ANY relief or sleep,I said I had a couple darvocets and gave her those and she has taken many aleve with no relief.The dr.prescribed her an antibiotic and prescription strength motrin! At this point I am just praying maybe she will get to feeling a bit better on her own from the antibiotics.The poor kid layed in bed just crying with a heating pad on her neck and ear.I called the Dr. back and told her about the extreme pain and she called her in 10 darvocets! I mean this is on Friday and office hours are almost over.I was sooooooo mad I mean what the hell,they couldn't call in something a bit stronger with perhaps more than 10?????? About 12 hrs. later she cannot talk she hurts so bad and is crying and begging me to take her to another hospital or she is going to kill herself.So I am so pissed off now I am going to pull a John Q. !!!!!!In case anyone missed the movie with denzel watch it! I get her back in the ER,and thank God I see a different Dr. with a bit of a compassionate look on his face,he takes her in the exam room and tells the nurse this child has an abcess the size of a 50 cent piece that is covering her throat and has spread to her ear canal.He immediatly put her on a demerol IV and they took a large needle and syringe and drained it half full! She still could not get any relief from the demerol believe it ir not and he said she has to be admitted so we can get this pain under control,he said if the pain had been managed properly in the first place it may not have reached the unbearable stage it had.They proceeded to put her in a quiet private room on a morphine drip which she stayed on for 48 hrs. and even then when she was able to take all her meds orally he said could stay as long as sh felt she needed! Anyway she was then sent home on 2 antibiotics prednisone and lortab which at that point was all she needed.ANyway PLEASE forgive me for writing this long probably rambling and boring story but I really needed to get that out of me and this seemed like a good place to post it.It is truly a sad statement of this day and time with all the miracles of modern medicine that anyone should have to endure any pain at all.I have learned that you really have to be a bitch and tell them on the pain scale you are off the chart...they have to write that on your chart and if you arn't treated properly then its their ass,I kind nurse told me that while I sat in the hospital with my daughter,and she also told me on the side that I had every right and reason to file a complaint against the Drs. that I had brought her to.Oh sorry but PS George Washington died from the same thing she had!Thanks to any and all who took the time tolisten to me ramble and if any other parent feels the need to unburden themselves feel free to write me!Thanks and love you all....be pain free and god bless.......wrenn
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its all fun & games til someone puts an eye out,then its still fun ,you just can't see***
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OLD
Member
Reged: 09/01/02
Posts: 119
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Yeah, I read an article in a leading news mag that said over 40,000 people die each year due to complications, overdoses, interactions, and mis-prescribed legitimate Rx's! however, only 1200-1500 people die ea. year from 'illicit' drug use! And to date 0 have died from marijuana use! I don't count idiots who get high and wreck cars or stick their heads in blenders! If you want to count that kind of behavior, over 15000 are killed ea. yr. by drunk drivers! And at least 150,000 minimum die from cigarette smoking ea. yr.! Our Govt.'s priorities are screwed! THAT"S OFFENSIVE! I'll get off the soapbox now! Later ,  OLD
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ditto
Member
Reged: 08/17/02
Posts: 102
Loc: Outer Space
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You are NOT rambling about some boring story!! As a mother myself, I would be heartbroken to see any of my children in so much pain.That is so sad...Hope she is feeling better.......
BTW,-I had a 3 week hospital stay, removed some of my small intestine, spleen, appendix...and more, and I was given 40 lousy Darvocet. I could not even walk up the flipping stairs I was in so much pain!!! I had to have a home health nurse come out and take care of me for God's sake......Why do doctor's treat children so differently?...they never treat their pain properly. Good for you, I would have given my kids some of my pain meds too..ditto....And another thing, that doctor SHOULD be reprimanded..I'm sure if he had your daughter's condition he would have gotten the best of care........
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ditto
Member
Reged: 08/17/02
Posts: 102
Loc: Outer Space
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Very nicely said sonick..it is just some people's human nature to pleasure-seek, and I admit to being a bleeding heart and feel sorry for such people. But to deny legit pain sufferers relief because of such people? To make us resort to clandestine gathering places to try to find relief and then try to stick it to us when we get "caught" seeking relief? I do not understand our govenment! Who am I hurting? Myself? Well I am already hurting enough, and I don't need anyone to protect me from my pain..........it seems like the insanity will never end...take care ...ditto p.s.....I am in more pain today and seem to take it out on the world by posting all over the place! sorry. 
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LumbarSpasm
Silent Chaos
Reged: 05/07/02
Posts: 1538
Loc: USA
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It has occured to me that docs have a certain age you must reach before you are even considered a candidate for narcotic pain relief and childhood,teenagers, and 20 somethings aren't in the equation. This is plain wrong imo.
Motrin isn't a panacea...and it takes antibiotics time to work.
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LumbarSpasm
Or just a pain in the butt?!
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NewYorker
Member
Reged: 08/10/02
Posts: 145
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If the so called "policy makers" had to deal with chronic pain for one day and get treated like criminals at the pharmacy, to get the full picture of what many of us go through daily, I think the laws would change dramatically. Because a few of Dr. Hurwitzs patients acted poorly 300 legit patients are going to have to scramble to find another doctor as caring as he was. Thats a crime right there. Why doesnt the government go after the few patients who did something illegal, talk to the doctor, and let his practice continue?
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"Lifes short so enjoy it while you can!"
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Jewels2
Board Addict
Reged: 04/25/02
Posts: 391
Loc: PNW
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I guess, as a Mom, I have to consider myself lucky. My son has been very fortunate as far as getting proper pain relief when he needed it, ie: broken leg, 2nd degree burns on his hand, back injury etc. The first time he needed narcotic pain meds was when he was 8, the resident wanted to give him ibuprophen and I thought the attending Dr. was going to smack him..He told the guy"Does this child look like he is going to abuse narcotics and what makes you think that ibuprophen is even going to touch his pain", he had 2nd degree burns on his hand, well I almost busted out laughing.if I hadn't been so worried about my baby i probably would have. Anyhow the attending Dr. prescribed 30 percocets and told me if they didn't help to call him. I was so impressed with this Dr. I had always heard that some Drs. feel that children don't feel pain like adults, and I call B*** Sh** on that one. Anyhow I also find the later, people not getting proper pain control, totally obscene. There are alot of people that commit suicide from not getting proper relief and that is so offensive. I am sure there is a statistic on that out there somewhere.
Jewels2
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wren
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/01/02
Posts: 284
Loc: up north & homesick for the di...
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hi! and thanks to those that read and or replied to my long post about my daughter,yes she is feeling better but still feeling abit wrung out.You know I must put my opinion on something about pleasure seekers of drugs,way back in my younger days or yore I guess I would have been considered a pleasure seeker into my 20s.I finally had to face up to alot of inner turmoil and major depression I had been masking for many years and went into therapy.I was told by a really great psycologist that many so called pleasure seeking drug users are actually trying to self-medicate without really knowing why or understanding their need to escape.It took me a long time and even still now not to want to take the easy way out by using something for instant gratification.I am not saying illegal drug use is acceptable only that I bet a very large percentage of them probably do need something like prozac or xanax and probably therapy also.I know it has worked wonders for me,although I am still kinda crazy!  anyway don't flame me please! Its just my opinion and maybe a bit of compassion for those with drug problems.peace and love you all..........wren
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its all fun & games til someone puts an eye out,then its still fun ,you just can't see***
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I don't think pleasure seekers are the problem. I think every adult has the right to take what ever they want too. I still believe it is the government controls that cause the crime and Docs to restrict the way they script.
It is the dumb pleasure seeker/legit user that causes the media to go wacko on its blitzing.
Informed use either for pleasure or medical reasons should be the users or the Docs call. Not the governments. If it(government) and people who think they know better would butt out of others business we'd all be better off.
OK flamed on, its only my opinion.
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toky20
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/17/02
Posts: 1347
Loc: Windy Place
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Ditto on that, Floger!!
toky
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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It's not just children they under medicate, it is animals also. I had a dog that had a complete mastectomy and for a dog that is quite a huge surgery. I asked about pain meds and they told me that animals handle pain better than people. After she had been home one day I could tell that was not true. The doc told me to give her two Tylenol instead of one. I promptly took her to another Vet and he just about had a stroke. He put her on Demerol and got the name of the Vet that did the surgery. He called that Vet and chewed him up one side and down the other. Needless to say, my dog now has a new Doc.
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malconfig
Member
Reged: 04/21/02
Posts: 198
Loc: Europe
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I totally agree with you there, Morgan. I understand it's routine veterinary practice to include an analgesic with the anaesthetics they use for animals, but this will wear off after 12 - 16 hours. My Vet told me aspirin is quite safe for dogs, & doesn't have any of the side-effects it causes in humans, so I give mine the aspirin/codeine meds we can buy OTC here - they certainly seem to appreciate it & be more comfortable after a dose (obviously adjusted for their particular body weight).
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codeine is the next best medicine...
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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A dog can basically take the same meds as a human. They can also take the same dose for a person or child of the same weight. Some Vet School Pharmacies will give you dosing info over the phone.
Cats are another matter while they can generally take the same meds the dose is quite different. They don't metabolize meds as quickly as dogs or humans and they can overdose really quickly. A vet will generally tell you a cat can't take Aspirin but they can. Their does is about 1/4 of a REGULAR Aspirin every THREE days. I just don't ever give my cat Aspirin. Even if the Vet orders it I tell him if she is in enough pain to need a med then let's give her something made for cats (dosage wise) and I don't have to worry about giving too much to her too soon.
As far as kids go....a lot of the older Pediatricians are better about giving kids meds when they need it. I have a friend that takes her kids to the doc she saw growing up. One of them had a horrible ear infection and he got Paragoric for the ear pain when Liquid Tylenol #3 didn't work.
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rmjjrw5
Stranger
Reged: 10/30/02
Posts: 10
Loc: Central Illinois
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I never dreamed I would be posting about doggie drugs, but here goes (lol). Last week I took my dog to the vet-he had pulled back muscles/back strain;the vet told me to NEVER give a dog anything containing acetaminaphin, ibuprofen, etc.. Something about their liver not being able to handle it. Since I had given him childrens Tylenol for the pain, she had me give him some Tagament to help with his stomach & to watch for signs of kidney failure. I had never heard of this before, but thought I would pass it on.
Oh yeah, she did say I could give him 1 Aspirin-but that would be the only OTC pain med (he weighs 36 lb.)
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Mom of 3
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Dogs can handle that stuff, it's the cats that can't handle that stuff and it's their liver that is the problem. There is a human arthritis med that is given to dogs on a regular basis, I can't remember the name now, but it is an ANSAID. My mother's dog took it for the last couple years of his life.
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LumbarSpasm
Silent Chaos
Reged: 05/07/02
Posts: 1538
Loc: USA
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Tylenol will kill a dog.
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LumbarSpasm
Or just a pain in the butt?!
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toky20
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/17/02
Posts: 1347
Loc: Windy Place
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My pets think they are human (but I think they're better than that!), but I refuse to give them human food, or human drugs. I will give them what the vet says to give them. Once my near-human dog ate a huge bag of mini M&Ms and I called the vet who prescribed Pepto Bismol. I never would have given that on my own. My dog also has his own Rx for valium... but I wouldn't give him any "people meds" without the vet prescribing it. I would feel just terrible if I tried to help but only made it worse.
People and animals are not the same. It's not fair to our pets to "test" our drugs on them in the hopes of saving a few bucks....
Take Care (of those babies!),
Toky
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ImodiumAD
Member
Reged: 06/26/02
Posts: 168
Loc: Calif, Bakersfield
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Really Lumbar?? Tylonol would kill a dog? 
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keystone
Veteran
Reged: 09/05/02
Posts: 586
Loc: Arizona, USA
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I disagree. I do not believe in moderate doses a Tylenol will kill a dog. It has been shown to cause liver damage in high dosages, however some dogs are put on Tylenol for fever control and yes, even Vicodin. Post-Op.
Info: only for the interested...
Acetaminophen (Tylenol) safety in dogs and cats
Question: Hi Dr Mike:
I have a question about Acetaminophen (Tylenol). The
Receptionist at our local veterinarian told us that in case of fever, it was ok to give our dogs
a Tylenol and NOT to give them ASPIRIN, or IBUPROFEN.
http://www.avma.org/pubhlth/poisgde.asp#yew
According to the AVMA Pet Poison Guide ratings scale, it appears
to me that the Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is more dangerous then the ASPIRIN, or
IBUPROFEN. Is this true or am I misunderstanding what I am reading or was
this by chance a misprint?
What would you recommend be given to a dog in case of a fever
ASPIRIN, IBUPROFEN, Acetaminophen (Tylenol) or something else?
Thank you for your time. I hope to hear from you soon, David
Answer: David-
Based on reactions in our canine patients, this is the ranking I would give
these medications: safest = acetaminophen (Tylenol tm), also safe =
aspirin, less safe = ibuprofen (Advil tm, Motrin Rx). However, this is
the ranking that I would give them based on the reports in the literature
and factoring in the likelihood of a bad reaction causing death: safest =
aspirin, also safe but less so = acetaminophen and less safe = ibuprofen.
The reason for these rankings include these things. Aspirin is reasonably
likely to cause gastric ulcers, which can be life threatening if ignored
but which respond to withdrawal of the medication. Acetaminophen doesn't
seem to cause ulcers but there are uncommon reactions to it in which liver
failure occurs and this may not respond to therapy, so death is a
possibility. Ibuprofen is very likely to cause ulcers, with 100% of dogs
developing ulcers with the use of ibuprofen in at least one study. On the
other hand, lots of my clients come in and tell me "I gave my dog an
ibuprofen last night" and I have only had to treat one or two cases of
ulcers and I can't recall a dog dying from this medication, yet.
My personal preference for pain and fever in dogs is aspirin but we do warn
our clients to discontinue the medication if the dog stops eating and to
call us or come in for a recheck if that happens.
In cats the situation is different. Acetaminophen is very toxic to cats and
this medication should simply never be used to treat a cat. Aspirin has a
long half life in cats, at least 24 to 48 hours, so it will reach toxic
levels pretty quickly if it is given more frequently than once every 48
hours and the dosage is 10mg/lb so a baby aspirin (81mg) is a much more
appropriate dosage for a cat than an adult aspirin. I have not seen much
information on ibuprofen and cats but it is a good idea to avoid all
non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medications in cats, at least until one of
them does prove to be safe in someone's clinical trials.
Mike Richards, DVM
3/10/2001
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The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he never existed.
Edited by keystonekid420 (11/07/02 10:47 AM)
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dodya
Journeyman
Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 74
Loc: USA/Planet Earth
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Ok folks, enough. I take adderall about 7am everyday. Well one day I dropped the open bottle, before I knew it our yappy little pomeranian grabbed one(30mg!!!!!!!) and swallowed it. Needless to say I was a bit concerned. Since the dog is crazy, annoying and hyper normally the adderall kicked in and I(and the dog) had a great time. Of course I called the vet and the solution was to give the dog atarax-which I did within an hour. But it was interesting to watch the mutt high on speed. Well that's not the topic, my vet has also said we should not give our dog tylenol. But hell, I figure if adderall didn't kill her, then what will. I will let you all know if I ever find out.
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White Hat Trolling is a way of life!!-
Edited by dodya (11/06/02 06:17 PM)
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toky20
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/17/02
Posts: 1347
Loc: Windy Place
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LOL , that creates quite the visual!! Poms are not exactly zen sorts of dogs, anyway!! I'm glad poochie's ok now. 
Toky
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dodya
Journeyman
Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 74
Loc: USA/Planet Earth
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Toky I was scared-I thought she would die. But it was hillarious watching a normally hyper dog on speed. I was sure she would die and I am greatful she survide. It was fun to watch
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White Hat Trolling is a way of life!!-
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toky20
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/17/02
Posts: 1347
Loc: Windy Place
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I know.. I was scared to death when we finally found out what was making the pooch throw up so much.... and then we had no real way of determining how much chocolate he had eaten, as my son had it stashed in his room somewhere and didn't know just how much was there. But the vet was really helpful and gave us a "ballpark" figure of how much chocolate it takes to be lethal... but it doesn't take much at all to make the dog sick!!
I drop my meds sometimes too, and I have been very firm with the critters that they're not to try to race me to it. So far, so good, but I never know when I'll drop another.. my hands don't always follow brain signals!
Again, that's a bad visual but I'm glad poochie's ok....
Toky
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dodya
Journeyman
Reged: 09/13/02
Posts: 74
Loc: USA/Planet Earth
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toky, LOL LOL LOL to "my hands don't always follow brain signals". GOD that is funny, it sounds like me AMEN.
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White Hat Trolling is a way of life!!-
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LumbarSpasm
Silent Chaos
Reged: 05/07/02
Posts: 1538
Loc: USA
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Keystone...thanks for that information.
I gotta check it out as I'm a nut and I'm sure I read that buffered aspirin was okay, but not acetimenophen.
Maybe it depends on the size of the dog and mg of the dose.
I once had a dog who chewed up 4 AA batteries. 
Not even a hole in his tongue...
Oh yea, I called him Sage...as in herb.
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LumbarSpasm
Or just a pain in the butt?!
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toky20
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/17/02
Posts: 1347
Loc: Windy Place
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Wow, LS, that was the last weird thing my dog ate recently, was a AA battery!! Sure is odd what they can live through, and what they put themselves (and US) through, huh!!
Take Care,
Toky
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cpmier
Journeyman
Reged: 11/10/02
Posts: 77
Loc: south
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the only meds that are different for animals are the ones for problems that humans dont get. All meds are the same if they have the vet lable or the human one. Anyone tells you different just dont have the facts. I sold the stuff for years. My 93 year old mother was worried about getting addicted to pain meds and i told her , so what, at least you wont be in pain and at 93 does it really matter. sometime later she died but not in pain.
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