JethroBodine
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Ozark Mountains
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I am not advocating anything illegal, and I hope nobody here has direct personal knowledge. That said, I have some questions. I think the subject impacts all of us on several levels.
The Afghan opium crops are supposed to be running at an all time high, but I don't see many news stories about heroin or opium supply and/or use. In the news stories about illegal pharmaceutical drug use, it is almost universally implied that when heroin supplies dry up, junkies turn to pharmaceuticals. Doesn't this imply that pharmaceuticals are less potent/more expensive/more difficult to obtain?? I am just wondering how 10 dollars in street heroin compares to 10 dollars in norcos from an OP. Obviously, it is not a good idea to turn to street drugs for the aleviation of pain. But, I'd just like to know.
sometimes I wonder if it might be a secret government policy to move pain patients in that direction, so they can be better controlled ie, felons. I'm already quite sure that the government wants as many felons as possible. Citizens with guns and votes are just too much trouble, they aren't as easy to push around as felons.
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There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is aint exactly clear.
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hibbs
Veteran
Reged: 08/22/03
Posts: 547
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Good topic Jethro, I found some info on this site, but maybe more people can add this to intersting topic!
http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/international/factsht/heroin.html
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The blues is the soundtrack to reality...
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JethroBodine
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Ozark Mountains
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I found this on erowid:
[From 48th edition Physicians Desk Reference]
Equianalgesic Dose (mg)
Name IM PO
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morphine 10 60
hydromorphone (Dilaudid) 1.5 7.5
methadone (Dolophine) 10 20
oxycodone (Percocet) 15 30
levorphanol (Dromoran) 2 4
oxymorphone (Numorphan) 1 10 (PR)
heroin 5 60
meperidine (Demerol) 75 --
codeine 130 200
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: All IM and PO doses in this chart are considered equivalent to 10 mg of IM morphine in analgesic effect. IM denotes intramuscular, PO oral, and PR rectal.
Sorry, I don't know how to straighten up this table. Anyway, it's a start. now if I can find out how much heroin costs, I'll have one of my answers.
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??????????????????????????????
There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is aint exactly clear.
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prettyday
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 1134
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
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Quote:
sometimes I wonder if it might be a secret government policy to move pain patients in that direction, so they can be better controlled ie, felons.
I have been wondering this for about a year; it's hard not to, when I have been trying to do the insurance dance and they keep sending me away with no hope of relief while telling me that I am a candidate for long term medication relief (i.e., time released morphine, anxiety meds, emotional therapy to assist with accepting my pain and past traumas...then..."oh your hour is up...see you in six weeks...") with no options as to where to go for the next step...I imagine by now they must suspect I go the OP route, but I am not about to tell them and give them a reason to call me a drug seeker when I am in my mind a survivor of an insane system...if they did start with local Pain Management, I would yes, inform my OP....they are who I feel more loyal to....
But to return to Mr. Bodine's theory....how can I help but think that that is why the DEA took down its "co-operative sheet in August...and proceeded to go after docs with a vengenance...
I have said on other forums, that I am the worst cynic; a disappointed idealist. I believe (don't freak here people, I would have made an excellent policewoman...I know people without judging them; and what I know first and foremost is this; FOLLOW THE MONEY! ALWAYS BUT ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MONEY! DEA Funding must, IMOO, depend on black and white determinations of what makes a drug user...to introduce the poor soul with non malignant pain who will live indefinitely, needing morphine, all manner of meds that could be called a "sanity cocktail" in addition to their therapies and faith and whatever else helps, is to introduce a puzzling model of human being aided by "illicit' meds; it simply will not do, you see, to complicate the situation.
So we are pushed (remember there are many out there still without knowledge of ROPs or courage even to attempt to order.) We are pushed from PCP to "scrip doc" ---at which point we can be harangued without guilt by the arresting agent that surely we knew by the very nature of our choice of doctor---
and then of course we have the methadone clinic or...the dealer...I could go on but my heart fails me...you see, I just got a glimpse of all that still awaits so many of us, if OPs ever are felled; perish the thought...and Mr. Bodine, I am afraid to say I agree with you, we are being herded into a moral area where we are forced to hang our heads and say, "yes, I knew that was wrong," and "yes I chose that doctor based on my chances to get _______________, or ______________________. Guilty without murder.
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
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JethroBodine
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Ozark Mountains
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You may also witness a typical technique of divide and conquor being played out on another thread. We all could take the high ground, the moral absolute, the libertarian view that government has no business putting their collective brown noses in our drugs. Such a move requires immediate sacrifice and willingness to fight to the end, for it places us all over the criminal line. Taking a more practical view, we may claim a certain medical and lawful legitimacy and sacrifice those who do not meet our standards, those who use IOPs and have questionable motives, perhaps admitting enjoying some of the side-effects from their required medication. Wherever we draw the line, we are dividing ourselves against ourselves. We will willfully whittle away our own rights, thinking we are protecting them (see NRA). Who is like unto the Beast? Who is able to make war against him?
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??????????????????????????????
There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is aint exactly clear.
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lincoona
Board Addict
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 398
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Quote:
I am just wondering how 10 dollars in street heroin compares to 10 dollars in norcos from an OP?
Too many opportunities for humor here, I will try to be serious.
First of all, if you were to buy Norcos by the dime bag, which is how many H addicts dose, I'm guessing you would get at most (2) pills (I have no idea of street prices for pills). The one time I tried H (a million years ago) I snorted $5 worth and it put me on the floor. No comparison there.
If you had the coin to use a NROP you could buy a significant amount of H instead, like a gram or more, in way better quality than dime bag stuff. This article: http://www.poliblogger.com/index.php?p=5498
states a street cost of ~$50/gram, that means a junkie with NROP/ROP coin could get 3-6 grams and the larger the buy, the stronger the quality. No comparison there either.
There are also legal ramifications (Sched.I vs III) as well as societal perceptions(i.e.,pill guy sad, junkie bad)
I undertstand your question and it is an interesting one, but a governmental conspiracy is a bit of a reach here.
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JethroBodine
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Ozark Mountains
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lincoona, you have stated it is no comparisson, but you did not state which is the winner!? It's not obvious from your post. $5 of heroin put you on the floor, but how about $5 worth of hydro?
You did state that heroin was selling for $50 a gram. I have read, elswhere that street heroin was 10 to 30% pure. Assuming both statements are correct, and using the midpoint of 20% purity, I figure that heroin costs 25cents per mg. The average OP price (including consultation, etc) for hydro is about$1.50 per 10mg pill, or 15cents per milligram. heroin is supposed to be several times more potent (about 3 or 4 times ), so it appears that street heroin is the better buy.
Do I really have to add a disclaimer? Man, that's getting old.
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??????????????????????????????
There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is aint exactly clear.
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lincoona
Board Addict
Reged: 11/24/04
Posts: 398
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And the winner is (drum roll please...) HEROIN!
[censored], now we'll get a zillion newbie posts about which NROP offers it and how much...
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Anastacia
Stranger
Reged: 03/13/05
Posts: 11
Loc: Uranus & Saturn
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Quick, hurry and tell me which NROP offers it for the cheapest price!!!  Sorry, just couldn't pass that one up.
BTW, how's that spider bite Jethro?
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"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." DALAI LAMA
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CARLITOS_WAY
Board Addict
Reged: 06/28/04
Posts: 353
Loc: WASHINGTON, USA
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Which NROP sells it!!! 
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NFR
Journeyman
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 64
Loc: U.S NorthWest
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In a truely free country ,any adult should have the right to ingest whatever substance they wish for whatever reason they may need it ,be it a medicial reason or a whatever. As long as you can go to a liquor store on just about every other corner and buy a gallon of vodka and knock yourself out ,who the hell are they to tell us which substance is OK and which one we have to jump thru a million hoops to get ,or risk arrest and losing everything you worked for over. The whole system needs to be revamped ,that gives back respect to a persons freedom to make their own dfecisions once they are an adult. Would not education and more information about the effects of differant substances and use ,do more to save lives and keep us safe ,then this losing battle,so called war on drugs. When are they going to learn you cant legislate morality, and stop wasting our tax money on housing people in prisons ,which in itself has become a profit making bis. The whole thing stinks from top to bottom! IMHO !
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dolphinsrule
Journeyman
Reged: 09/18/03
Posts: 87
Loc: NewJersey
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I have no idea what the street price is for Hydro, but we pay 2-4 dollars to a ROP or NROP legally. I can just imagine what the street price must be. What I cant imagine is why someone would pay that amount when clearly ,smack is cheaper. If your going risk to buy it illegaly anyhow, why not go for the best deal. Both are addicting if used for the wrong reasons. Hell both are addicting if used for severe pain. I wonder if H were to become legal, would the price be higher than Hydro? It is the stronger drug after all..... 
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NFR
Journeyman
Reged: 12/24/04
Posts: 64
Loc: U.S NorthWest
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About five years ago ,a friend of a friend new someone that wanted to sell 100 5/500 Vicodins generic. I did not want them ,wasnt interested ,I have a liver condition and taking alot of tylenol would not be good for me and probably make me feel ill, however, FYI they wanted two $ per pill. I hear how they are selling oxycontins on the black market for $1 a mg ,thats forty dollars for one 40mg pill. I was getting those legally with a perscription again about five years ago ,I know longer take any narcotic based pain killer, and my insurance paid for the script all except my co-pay .However the pharmacist told me the insurance was billed $4.50 per pill. Thats a good size mark up from the pharmacist to street price ,seems to almost invite diversion. Thats what makes this whole health system ,a real fiasco ,the harder they make it for those in need to fill that need ,the higher they drive up the street price ,its almost as if they are doing the criminals a favor ? Again IMHO !!!!(Im My Humble Opinion)
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joffrey
Member
Reged: 02/03/02
Posts: 140
Loc: Left Coast
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FYI, to help put this into perspective. . .
Where I am (rather not say exactly. . .West Coast), Oxycontins on the street go for $20 for a 40 and $30 for an 80. It varies, but that's approximate.
5/500 generic Percs have been sold for up to 5 dollars a copy (outrageous). 5/500 generic hydros, $2.50 - $3.00 a piece. Norcos, or the generic equivalent, 4, usually, 5 bucks per pill. Why these meds are diverted is apparent.
How do I know? Just running into people making offers; they're out there. Fortunately, I've been able to obtain legit scrips from my physician and, later, an ROP, for Watson generic 10/325s for considerably less than 5 dollars a piece.
Good luck. . .May you be pain/anxiety free.
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I'm not a doctor; I just think I know everything.
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Desiree99
Newbie
Reged: 11/23/04
Posts: 29
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Are you kidding, NFR - that would be rational! We've gotta uphold that cheerless life of Judeo-Christian inspired pain or we're not living in the light of our cruel self-righteous and vindictive Lord and the many lackeys who preach his word!
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JethroBodine
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Ozark Mountains
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Sooo, all other factors ignored, For cost effectiveness, it's insurance paid, heroin, ROP/brick pharm, NROP, street pharmaceuticals. It seems like the dealers are missing out on a potiential market. If they would supply a clean, measured dose of oral heroin or other opiate, they would have a ready market. Street heroin is notorious for being audulterated. Probably nearly all of us would rather live with our pain than take chances on that junk. Even if it were the only choice. I remember back in the early 70's you could get a fairly clean and reliable pill of speed or acid. These were cooked up in a lab probably no more sophisticated than a heroin lab. I'm just thinking out loud, here. Not suggesting anything. It probably can't be done anyway. If it could they would still be selling white crosses instead of powdered meth with everything except cat poop in it. Heck, maybe they DO put cat poop in it. It would probably be the least harmful ingredient. Anyway, just thinking aloud....
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??????????????????????????????
There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is aint exactly clear.
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Diarmada
Journeyman
Reged: 12/28/02
Posts: 64
Loc: Wastelands
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Dunno ifn I should say anything here, for varied reasons, but pure heroin isn't that hard to come by in certain parts of the country...the last time I made it to lower florida, there was some talk of purer H, the ingestible kind, that was pretty cheap considering....now I do know all the theorist out there and all the conspiracy theories based on the US invading or policing certain countries (Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Nicaragua, Afghanistan) and then BOOM! a huge booming new market in the US, for the drugs they have there i.e. Marijuana, Opium & Cocaine...but the fact that pure heroin is more often seen in the last year or so may be purely coincidence, but may speak volumes to the fact that the true drug war may be raging against those individuals who are against the ones backed here at home...dunno, just a thought, having lived in Scotland for many past years, my history of drug prices is scant at best (maybe my history of the US as well), but I do know that here, Hydros go for $5 to $8 dollars per 10 mg, now I know that does seem insane, but this is a seller's market, always has been...nothing else to do here I suppose...
Cheers!
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¤ ~ Is there another life? Shall I awake and find this all a dream? There must be; we cannot be created for this type of suffering ~ Keats ¤
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JethroBodine
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Ozark Mountains
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It is truly an amazing set of coincidences. usA kills the taliban which had reduced the opium crop in A'stan to zero. Now cheap, pure heroin is becoming available. At the same time doctors, OPs, and pain patients are being targeted by the DEA. I'm sure it's all just coincidence, but you can see where this is heading. The usA is now the nation with the highest per capita incarceration rate, and new "for proffit" prisons are being built to handle the increased load. That's one way to compete with 10 cents per hour labor in third world countries, I guess. Once released, felons cannot own a gun or vote, so they aren't a lot of trouble for the state, and they must take any available low paying job, or turn to real crime just to survive. It's a bad situation, but I'm sure government can't do anything about it, or it would, right?
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??????????????????????????????
There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is aint exactly clear.
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prettyday
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 1134
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
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By the way, felons are counted as constituents, even though they cannot vote...so for a politician, it's a dream, population to sway pork barrel funding without those troublesome voting people.
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
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SteveP
Stranger
Reged: 03/29/05
Posts: 14
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Comparing hydro to heroin is like comparing nodoz or caffeine pills to crack. Sure OTC nodoz and prescription hydro is more expensive than crack or heroin. But so is a $100 bottle of wine compared to a bottle of cheap vodka. ounce per ounce, $ for $ What gets you more for the money?
With that in mind, now all i need to ask is when was the last time you checked into rehab because of your $200+ per day hydro habit?
Now, Given how much stronger heroin is, do the translation of what its costs a hydro addict to sustain his habit, compared to a junkie... Makes hydro seem cheaper than dirt.
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ksee
Newbie
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 31
Loc: midwest usa
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How can you even compare a hyro user to a heroin user or crack head are saying that you would actually steal or rob to get your pills that is just ridiculous..
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ksee
Newbie
Reged: 04/06/05
Posts: 31
Loc: midwest usa
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I unfortunately now a man that was turned away from the hospitals soooo many times b/c the thought he just had a slipped disc or herniated disc. He was given a couple percocet a told there was not much they could do for him.. You see his insurance was not ineffect yet so there was no one willing to help him. We knew that he had to have an MRI but no one would give him one. Finally he refused to leave the hospital until they gave him an MRI. He had an infection in his back that was eating his vertebrae. He was missing a very large portion of the vertebrae it is now replaced w/ prostisis. After the MRI was performed the rushed him into surgery w/ in 20 min.
The whole reason I'm telling this story is b/c I want to show how someone that is in real pain if not treated can make horrible decisions. This man would need to use heroin or cocain intraveneously to numb the pain he never turned into a junky he just use these horrible drugs when he had no more pain med.s. He never used these drugs in this manner before this event and now that he has had surgery and is on a regularly scheduled dose of painkillers never touches the stuff. But at the time it was the only releif he could get. Kinda sad Hah...
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JethroBodine
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 292
Loc: Ozark Mountains
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Ksee, are you saying this guy with the bad spinal condition WAS using illegal drugs before he was finally diagnosed?
IMO there are varying degrees of dependence and/or addiction. I know dissabled vets who have more pain than the VA will treat, and don't have insurance. They hang out at the bar swapping WHATEVER kind of pain medicine they can get, and sipping beer. Do they ever overdo it and get high, even wasted? You bet they do, some more than others. Most of them, most of the time are only trying to maintain a bearable level of pain. They get their drugs from the same dealers who sell to hard core junkies who really live only for the high and are willing to do anything to get it. Don't tell me that everyone who is in real pain and getting proper treatment wouldn't resort to extraordinary measures if they were cut off. Every hunter knows that the most dangerous animal is a wounded one. Pain makes people angry and desperate.
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??????????????????????????????
There's somethin' happenin' here.
What it is aint exactly clear.
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prettyday
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 1134
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
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Bingo.
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
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