jazee
Journeyman
Reged: 09/16/04
Posts: 53
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Over the past 3 months I've been sort of experimenting with Benzodizepines for what I would call 'temporary anxiety disorder' (basically GAD but caused by specific recent life events, I normally don't have anxiety or have ever gotten panic attacks) I did tons of research before trying these meds. I just wanted to try to give back to this board by documenting my experiences.
On the Benzos, I was careful to not take the short-acting ones (Xanax and Ativan) multiple times a day. My basic goal was to not get me in a situation where going cold turkey was going to have a high probability of experiencing seizures and really nasty withdrawl, even though I would never go cold turkey on these drugs, but you never know if you may find yourself in a siutation without access to them for a couple days. I basically would take 2 mg of Ativan during the day whenever I started feeling anxious/stressed. 90% of the time I never took more than one dose in 24 hours. I occassionally took 1mg of Xanax but I can confirm what other reports/people have stated about the 'rebound' effect of this drug. Because of the slower onset/offset and different pharmacology of the Ativan, I found if I skipped a day and didn't take anything the next day, I felt less stressed the day after taking the Ativan compared to having taken the Xanax the day before which actually made me feel unusually MORE stressed out the next day unless I took another dose. I feel very sorry for those people taking multiple doses of Xanax every day. That drug has HUGE dependence potential - scary stuff. (Not to say though the Ativan is THAT much better regarding the dependence/addiction potential.)
Every once in a while (maybe once a week) I'd take a valium in order to have sort of a low 'background' level of Benzos in my system which sort of helped round off the peaks and valleys of the inconsisent usage of the Ativan (and Xanax). It also provided additional protection from severe withdrawl symptoms if I didn't take the Ativan for a couple days. Overall, it seems the strategy has worked well. While I think this strategy would not provide enough relief for people with more severe generalized anxiety disorder, it was enough for me, and by keeping the doses low, being inconsistent and skipping a day here and there, not only have I found I can skip more than a day without feeling very significant withdrawl, but I've also minimized the build up of tolerance to these drugs so I don't have to gradually increase the dosage siginficantly. I did find towards the end my average dosage was slightly higher (.5mg or so on the Ativan, and maybe 5mg on the Valium) but that's all.
The thing that I find distressing though is all the messages I've read on this board about the horror stories of coming off these drugs. Most of them do not provide detailed information about their dosage regimen leading up to their battle of coming off them. I think most of them result in a typical regimen like minimum 1-2mg of Xanax 2-3 times a day, or 2-3mg Ativan 2-3 times a day. I can see how one could easily build up to those levels due to the tolerance. You really have to be diligent about your dosing to prevent that from happening and be willing to actually tolerate some of the anxiety/stress some of the time.
So I think the point I'm trying to make is that you can make effective use of these drugs without getting into trouble and without having to take decreasing dosages of Valium or Klonopin for several weeks to get off them. (Although when I decided to completely get off them, even though I didn't HAVE to, I did take small doses of valium every few days for a week or so just to be safe, basically 10mg the first day, 5 mg 2 days later, and then 2.5 mg 3 days later followed by 2.5 mg another 3 days later - worked really well for me, but most others would probably need to start at higher dosages if they had a higher dosage regimen prior to coming off them - CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR)
In general, my goal was to never ever take the drugs more often than their half life, preferably no more often than 2 times their half life. Xanax and Ativan have a half life of around 12-16 hours. The Ativan definitely seems to have longer lasting and more gradual effects. So at most I was taking a dose every 24 hours, so there was only a minimal amount of build up. The Valium has a half-life the varies with people metabolism, but I guessed my was about 50 hours or a little over 2-days. So I never took the valium more than once every 2-days. The other thing I did was try to take it as late in the day as possible. That way, when the drug had pretty much felt like it had almost worn off, I was in bed going to sleep so I was asleep for the next 8 hours as the drug left my system. I think taking it in the morning or even early afternoon, you could run into problem of feeling a little stressed in the evening and therefore having trouble getting to sleep.
Hope this information is useful to people using these drugs.
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leap
Member
Reged: 11/19/03
Posts: 101
Loc: blue state
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I find this very helpful information and thank you for sharing it. So helpful in fact, that I'm printing it out to put into my medical info file for future reference.
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"I want to believe." - Fox Mulder
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MetsFan
Member
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 158
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Hey,
My experience has been similar and you sound like a prudent person. But, I think that a day skipped does not matter too much if valium had been used recently, since its half life is so long. Try a week with none and see. From using benzos on and off for the last 25 years, all I can say is be careful. I (knew) people who would rather kick dope (horse, smack, whatever)habit than a benzos habit. Let the user beware..
MetsFan
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emtp3
Journeyman
Reged: 08/12/04
Posts: 75
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Very good post, I have been following a similar regime and find it working quite well, although I don't take any Xanax.
Good Job!
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Fighting the "DOOM Dealer"
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swtangel
Member
Reged: 07/09/04
Posts: 164
Loc: Delaware
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Quote:
So I think the point I'm trying to make is that you can make effective use of these drugs without getting into trouble and without having to take decreasing dosages of Valium or Klonopin for several weeks to get off them. (Although when I decided to completely get off them, even though I didn't HAVE to, I did take small doses of valium every few days for a week or so just to be safe, basically 10mg the first day, 5 mg 2 days later, and then 2.5 mg 3 days later followed by 2.5 mg another 3 days later - worked really well for me, but most others would probably need to start at higher dosages if they had a higher dosage regimen prior to coming off them - CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR)
Hope this information is useful to people using these drugs.
I want to say first that I think your post was wonderful and you had many great things to say and you will help many people with this. But I feel the need from another point of view to add a few things. I was addicted to benzos-Ativan to be exact.
For over two months I took 2mgs 4-5 times a day at least. I stopped taking them on my own and a withdraw seizure which is very common when you stop taking any benzo cold turkey. Now yes I was taking a very high dose, however after my seizure they had to put me back on Ativan because even though I had already been through 4 days of withdraw and the seizure I had to step down. So for a month and half my husband had to force feed me those pills becuase I was so scared of becomeing addicted once again. But if I did not take them I would have another seizure becuase there was not enough Ativan in my system.
I 'm not sure if I am making my point. Benzo's can be as danerous at low doses as they are at high doses. Once they are in your system your body becomes tolerante to them very quickly. Like another poster said they are one of the hardest things to get clean from. All in all it took me 3 months to get off Ativan.
The seizure I had from withdraw lowered my seizure threshold, I have to take medicine everday, I have had recurrant seizures. If I had had 10 minutes earlier I would have been driving down the highway. My benzo habit has changed my entire life. Like I said I think your post was wonderful, but please don't tell people that they all can win a war with benzos.
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Even God doesn't have a plan to judge man till the end of his days, why should I? -author unknown
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Lablady2
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/05/04
Posts: 259
Loc: New York City
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???Have taken Valium on and off for over 10 years and have never had any problems coming off of it - other than a couple of days of muscle spasms and tension/anxiety - which is why I take it in the fist place. I think everyone's body reacts differently to these and other medications............
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lela
Member
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 183
Loc: Southwest
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Good post jazee. I've taken xanax off and on for 20 years and they are very addicting, at least to me. I've never gone cold turkey as you are not supposed to; can cause all kinds of side effects. I just wean myself off, as advised, by lowering the dosage gradually. Some people have advised me to try Klonpin as an alternative. I have never taken it; do you or anyone else have any advice before I try it?
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Free your mind and your a** will follow.
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lostbenzo
Stranger
Reged: 12/10/04
Posts: 2
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Klonopin if you become adddicted....In my experience Has the worst withdrawl...Good luck
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lvsfan
Stranger
Reged: 02/10/04
Posts: 24
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After withdrawing, with medical help, from Xanax, my doctor put me on Klonopin, as the safest. This is for life-long anxiety/panic disorder; I'd much rather not take it, but I couldn't leave the house, so not much of a choice. With the Xanax, I had to keep upping the dose for the same relief, but have been on the same, small (.5 1.5 daily, depending on stress) Klonopin dose for years now. When I skip a day, don't have the terrible craving I had w/ Xanax. But seems like different benzos affect different people to a Huge degree, which isn't properly addressed in the medical literature, imo.
Klonopin was orignally just prescribed for seizure disorders, and used off-label for anxiety.
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bluez
Banned
Reged: 11/04/04
Posts: 81
Loc: Arizona
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Exactly the same thing that happened with me. Xanax should be put in a special class all by itself - it took me 6 months to taper off, 1/8 mg at a time. I had a doctor that initially said to stop in a week - it goes without saying that I never stepped foot in his office again! It's essential to find a supportive doctor to help with the taper which I was fortunate enough to do.
The Klonopin helps with GAD enormously and I, also, don't feel the need to take more than necessary like with Xanax. However, at least I know that if/when it's necessary to stop taking it, I'll be forewarned. I wouldn't wish benzo withdrawals on anyone. There are not enough awful adjectives to describe that lost week. Whew, I've got the creeps even thinking about it!
Ho, ho, ho to all and to all a good night!
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says he isn ot with op but is always fighting with chris who thinks he is one of hte owners at nww
banned for being trouble in that and since he says he isn ot with nww: no problem
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FatWang
Journeyman
Reged: 10/31/04
Posts: 70
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I have been taking benzo lately for anxiety. I have used temazepam for years to help with sleep whenever I had opiate withdrawals or downward dosages, but I never really used Valium, Ativan, or Xanax. I got my first Ativan script in July, with a Xanax in September after an auto accident.
I used the Ativan quickly, then stopped as I adjusted to my new surroundings (I returned to school after years of work). I have kept using Xanax though. I do not use it on weekends (I hope that 48 hours proves I am not addicted), but I use it almost every other night to sleep. I only avoid it when I am seriously tired (like tonight, after I drove from Virginia to Chicago). I never take it more than once a day. Is this a safe method? I like the stuff (I wake up feeling fine), but it is not worth addiction. I have a hard enough time with opiates as it is.
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lela
Member
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 183
Loc: Southwest
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Everone's system is different. I've found that taking Xanax daily, for reasons I won't go into, is addicting. But from others experiences and mine, if you just take it for sleep a few times a week you'll be ok. I like it because it doesn't leave me with a hangover or any other side effects. Use caution and common sense as with any "habit forming" drug and don't drink while taking it.
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Free your mind and your a** will follow.
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lela
Member
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 183
Loc: Southwest
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just goes to show that everyone reacts differently to benzos. Of all the times that I weaned myself off of Xanax it never took that long and wasn't that bad. Even after taking it daily for 6 months it only took about 3 weeks and I didn't experience anything major. I feel very lucky for that and especially since it's the only thing that really works when I need anxiety relief. I'm wary about trying Klonopin now. I may as well stay with what I know works for me and h... it seems that all effective meds are addictive used as prescribed.
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Free your mind and your a** will follow.
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lvsfan
Stranger
Reged: 02/10/04
Posts: 24
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Lela, reading back, seeing you've been on Xanax for 20 yrs, sounds like you're in control there, so yeah, doesn't seem worth switching, imo, of course. We're all so different, you might end up in trouble with Klonopin! Years ago, I had valium & could take it or leave it, but my brother got so addicted he was stealing mine...& ended up w/ a gran mal seizure when he ran out.
Seems so stupid we have to figure this stuff out ourselves, while the govt is so worried about the evil Narcotic Pain Demons, people have to die from Vioxx, Aleve, etc. before they even begin to think NSAIDs might be a problem...
not addictive=no problem. Arggg!
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lostbenzo
Stranger
Reged: 12/10/04
Posts: 2
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I have been on all...and as atated in my last post...klonpin
has the worst withdrawls....but it helps my anexity...a lot....and from my experience...yes the shorter acting ones r more more addicting...the withdrawal....is far less severe...peace
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Philip3
Stranger
Reged: 02/27/04
Posts: 15
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Those of us taking these for sleep and strees relief at the end of the day. I alternate xanax(0.5 - 1mg) with Valium (10mg) once in the evening. And Skip days with Ambien (5 - 10mg). Seems to work well for me and no tolerance issues.
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swtangel
Member
Reged: 07/09/04
Posts: 164
Loc: Delaware
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Quote:
just goes to show that everyone reacts differently to benzos.
That was sorta the point that I was trying to make. We are all very different. And I do not think that you can name a thread "Benzo addiction and Withdraw can be avioded" It is wrong and unfair.
Benzo addiction to alot of people may not be controled all of the time. I was at a serious low, I had just had my second child, just benn diganosed as bi-polar and my life turned upside down. And yes withdraw MAY BE avoided if you know what you are doing-but that is a big if, not everybody is brillant. I had never taken that medicine before and I had no idea that if I had stopped I would have had a seziure.
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Even God doesn't have a plan to judge man till the end of his days, why should I? -author unknown
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oxford
Stranger
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 8
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Is there a generic Klonopin made by the same manufacturer as Roche. I have been using Purepac and it doesn't have the same effects as the brand Klomopin by Roche. Can anyone give advice on a good generic Klonopin. I do know that Xanax uses a generic under the name Greenstone and there is no difference in Quality. I am looking for the same kind of situation as for Klonopin
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lvsfan
Stranger
Reged: 02/10/04
Posts: 24
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For me the generic clonazepam made by TEVA, USA is just as good. I had the same prob. Another generic was so useless that for a while I paid the extra money (no insurance, needless to say), for brand name. Costco dispenses the TEVA, if you have a scrip, for abt 8 cents a pill for 0.5s.
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oxford
Stranger
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 8
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Thank you Ivsfan. I heard Watson besides Hydrocodone, makes a quality generic Klonopin. Has anybody else heard anything? Please help!
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lela
Member
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 183
Loc: Southwest
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Swtangel,
I say this with all good intentions, trying to help and no disrespect intended. Doctors are not God. Listen to what they say and then research, call a pharmacist and buy a PDR. It's your body and your life, you have to take responsibility for it, for you and your children's sake. Again, please don't take offense to this, I just care about people and it sounds like you took the doctor's word, as so many do, and he did not do his job as so many do not. He should have explained everything to you. I'm so sorry you had to go through that; it was completely avoidable and was not your fault. Also, with your conditions, even if the doctor tells you it's ok to take several meds together, always call a pharmacist for confirmation. 
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Free your mind and your a** will follow.
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sunflower29
Member
Reged: 04/13/04
Posts: 154
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My 2 cents' worth regarding what Jazee said about withdrawal, and its severity. I've actually found unfortunatley that you can get really, really horrible withdrawal even taking a low dose of benzos. I think as long as a benzo is in your system, it's decreasing the brain's natural ability to produce its own Gaba, so the job's being done by the benzo instead, and also making it so your brain will not be happy if it has to suddenly pick up the slack when the benzos are out of your system.
I can only report from my own experience, but I was on what many would consider a low dose - 1.5mg of clonazepam a day, no more than that for a year, and trying to taper from that was HELL. And this was a very slow taper.
I managed to get my doseage down a little lower, but over time many do feel the need to take a higher dose to produce the same effect they once had at a lower dose.
I have a very bad anxiety disorder and without benzos I wouldn't be able to work or socialize with anyone. I'd be living as a hermit in a cave someplace, so I'm very grateful for them, and I doubt I'll ever stop taking them unless something else comes along that works just as well without the withdrawal issue.
I've tried about 9 different antidepressents over the years to address my anxiety disorder, and one of them, Luvox (fluvoxamine) I took for 3 years and although it alleviated my anxiety quite effectively, and although I didn't experience severe withdrawal coming off it (although there was some), it wasn't better than a benzo. It sapped my energy, my emotions (I couldn't cry, even when I needed to), and gave me the worst migraines which landed me in the hospital a couople of times. Luvox also put about 30 pounds on me, and I was so lethargic, all I wanted to do was take naps during the day. I wasn't really living.
I don't have any of these side-effects with benzos. No migraines (I'm prone to migraines, and I actually get less while on benzos, which is great), I can feel a full range of emotions, and my metabolism is normal again, the weight dropped off, so I'm no longer worried about diabetes, and I feel better being at my normal weight again.
However, I also know that if I didn't have benzos, after a few days, I'd be in serious trouble, and I might even have a seizure because I'm dependent on them. That became crystal clear when I first attempted to taper off them.
I guess it's a question of weighing the positive and negative consequences of taking these medications. They've allowed me to have a life, but I don't like the fact that they've altered my brain and nervous system to the point that I would go into withdrawal if I went without my medication for too long.
But at this point in my life, the benefit far outweighs the negative, and I know that I've tried so many other ways to deal with my anxiety without success, and lost several years of my life trying. So if benzos work, that's what I'll use, and a doctor once told me that benzos do no damage to major organs and there's far more scientific documentation on benzo usage than the psychiatric medication they're handing out these days, especially very new ones like neurontin and topomax, and of course all those SSRIs. Valium's been around for a long time and they know a lot about its effects on the body. (And most benzos act on the same receptors in the brain, so clonazepam is probably not all that different from valium. I can interchange the two and I don't notice much difference at all.) I trust years of research on valium more than I do the drugs whose long-term effects are yet to be seen.
And this post is getting way too loooong... 
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jazee
Journeyman
Reged: 09/16/04
Posts: 53
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The reason you had the withdrawl problem with clonazepam is that in fact 1.5mg is not a low dose, it is quite a high dose for a benzodiazepine. Most publications will list .5 mg of clonazepam as equivalent to 10mg Valium or .5mg Xanax, 1mg Ativan. One publication I found ( http://www.rxfiles.ca/acrobat/Cht-Psyc-Benzodiazepines.pdf ) lists its equivalency as being twice that much (.25 mg = 10 mg Valium). So if we average the two and say .35mg of clonazepam is a good estimated equivalent, you were taking close to the equivalent of 40mg of Valium or 2mg of Xanax or 4 mg of Ativan. That's a high amount, although not hugely high.
Again, my rule of thumb is to avoid withdrawl, don't take the drug more often than twice its half life. Clonazepam has an average half-life of around 30 hrs. That means you could only take one every 2 days (or a bit more). Taking more often than that, your going to get a significant build up of the drug in your system. Yes, even at twice the half-life 25% of the drug will still be in your system, but it keeps the *average* amount in your system low enough so that your brain doesn't try TOO hard to compensate. Yes it does compensate over time and you will feel *mild* withdrawl if you stop cold turkey (unless your are taking these like once a week or less) but your risk of seizure is going to be very low and the amount of time it will take to completely get off the drug, decreasing dosages, will be relatively short. (like 1 week as opposed to 3 weeks or more).
I acknowledge everyone's situation is different. I can only comment on my own experiences.
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marytengel
Stranger

Reged: 11/29/04
Posts: 15
Loc: somewhere over the rainbow
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Hi Everyone,
I found this thread very interesting, with everyone taking multiple meds, I was prescribed effexor and it seems to be helping, I had no luck with paxil or wellbutrin. but i also am self medicating recently with 5mg of valium as needed.
does anyone have any experience with the mix of those two as i have concern.
thanks in advance for any advice.
peace out
mary
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