Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1230
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Dividing a 9-mg daily dose in three? Huh? They come in 2s and 8s ... and because of the long halflife, dosing need only be done once a day once someone is stabilized.
This board would be a much better place if people only posted about things they have some knowledge of.
I know someone who gets his Bupe from a state-run drug treatment program where what they dispense is mostly methadone; even after 90 days of Suboxone and no opiates found in his almost-weekly urine tests, he still has to go in there 6 times a week for observed dosing and only gets "take-homes" for Sunday.
Private doctors wouldn't do that or the patient would just go somewhere else. (And federal rules require only 8 random urine tests a year.) This man has no choice because he can't afford private treatment. Suboxone is expensive! The list price for an 8-mg tab is $5.50 and the 2s cost roughly $3 each.
Even though this man has a low enough income that he qualifies for free medical care from the state, he pays $180/month to be in a Bupe program that includes his medical care as well as the cost of the drug. They *pay him* (by reducing his cost) $15 for each week that he sees his counselor. He could be getting methadone for the exact same price but Bupe is better for him and he plans to eventually taper it down to zero. If he was on methadone, he would probably be getting the maximum allowed daily dose and quitting it would be almost impossible.
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Your mileage may vary ...
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1230
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
... Because I work in a high profile job and my business world reputation is at stake, I did ask specifically if I were going to be put in a database or on some other type of "list" that informed the government of my status as an "addict" and he assured me that they were monitoring his prescribing practices as a physician but did not have any monitoring process in place for the patient. ...
Suboxone treatment is supposed to be disclosed to all other doctors who treat the patient. The law requires them to chart it if you tell them. There can be drug interactions that a doctor should be made aware of, and, god forbid, post-accident treatment of pain with opiates is definitely affected by Bupe therapy. Also, unless someone wants to be quoted outrageous prices for individual health care insurance for the rest of their life, people should be aware that using health insurance to pay for this treatment will be recorded by the Medical Information Bureau. There is a certain diagnosis and treatment code that you don't want on your record there. Better to pay for it.
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Your mileage may vary ...
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lovely11
Board Addict
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 332
Loc: With my dog at my side
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I was only going by what the doctor who prescribed mine told me. And, he never even asked me for other doctor names where I may be receiving treatment.
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Lovely - devout dog lover
I wish I were half as good as my dog thinks I am.
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lovely11
Board Addict
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 332
Loc: With my dog at my side
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Someone told me that they still take hydro periodically while one this med. How can that be if you can only take Sub when you're in W/D?
If you did take a hydro while on the Sub it would seem to me that it'd throw you into W/D. That's the whole reason why they won't give it to you until you are in a mild state of W/D because if you weren't it would cause horrible W/D's. That's what my doctor told me.
Is this true?
Can someone explain what happens if you're on the Sub and you take a hydro? Or is it that they Sub overpowers the hydro and you just don't feel the effect. I'm confused??
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Lovely - devout dog lover
I wish I were half as good as my dog thinks I am.
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rara
Member
Reged: 11/16/02
Posts: 120
Loc: Aussie
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depends on the dose of both & current tolerance to the other narcotic. If you are currently 'addicted' you may find yourself in full blown withdrawal. If not -
Either the strongest will win out or they will cancel & you'll feel nothing. Im stating this from my own experience taking temgesic (buprenorphine) 1.2mg daily for pain & having a few times taken 2x60mg dhc later in the day and had no change in experience whatsoever. Also the other way round having taken a bit too much dhc that was making me feel sick as a dog I thought Id take some bup to knock those little dhc molecules out of those receptors & can report that it did not work at all!
Pain dosages compared to addiction maintenance dosages are smaller by orders of magnitude. The low doses dont have the long half life that addiction maintenance doses do. People on those doses can get away with taking it 3 times per week (the full weeks dose divided over 3 days).
I found my dose of 1.2mg temgesic had absolutely no pain killing properties whatsoever. Ive never heard this before & my doc seemed a bit mystified so it may be I have some strange metabolism.
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rara
Member
Reged: 11/16/02
Posts: 120
Loc: Aussie
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also, just wanted to say to Lovely Im so happy for you.
And to anyone else considering seeking out this drug in order to free themselves from the chains of any narcotic painkiller:
dont think about it, consider it, wonder what if.....
DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it's a good clean drug. it works in small doses, maybe not for pain for some so well but it will get you off the treadmill.
peace
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BABYBLUEYES
Stranger
Reged: 03/09/04
Posts: 21
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WOW LOVELY!!!!!!
This is Greatttttttttt!!
Please write me when you get time?
Hugz
BABYBLUEYES
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dardee226
Stranger
Reged: 11/17/04
Posts: 3
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Let me tell you about this medication since I have used it twice to quit the meds. It is a narcotic, but it is a antagonist to opiods also. That is why it will put you in immediate withdrawals. You are suppost to wait ten hours in between taking hydro or anything else before starting. Suppost to be in mild withdrawal. It works but you have to ween yourself of this med to. But once you take it for a week if you take any opiate it doesn't work because it is an antagonist.
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lovely11
Board Addict
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 332
Loc: With my dog at my side
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Hello BabyBlue and everyone else,
Well, it's one week and one day today since I started the Suboxone. I'm still doing wonderful. I'm shocked at the whole ordeal. I feel great, have energy, have been in a great mood, (which is a miracle since I'm prone to depression) and had an overall awesome experience going this route.
I would recommend this to anyone wishing to quit or take a break from hydro. It's the only way to go.
I hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving. I'm thankful for being able to share this experience with whomever may need to read it.
God bless you all!!!!
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Lovely - devout dog lover
I wish I were half as good as my dog thinks I am.
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Lisa1967
Member
Reged: 10/29/02
Posts: 123
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Lovely,
I am absolutely thrilled for you!!! Keep up the great work,and thanks so much for sharing your story!!
I'd liek to know if Temegisic is the same stuff as what you're taking,and if so,can I get that and get off hydro myself?? I really hate this drug,but it's the only thing that helps w/my pain(not even morphine works!!)
Still,I would like to get off of it,as all it does is make me tired,and it barely even helps anymore anyay.
Thanks for any info-and keep us posted,Lovely!!
Lisa
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rara
Member
Reged: 11/16/02
Posts: 120
Loc: Aussie
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Quote:
I feel great, have energy, have been in a great mood, (which is a miracle since I'm prone to depression)
Lovely this is one of the lesser known properties of buprenorphine & was why I was being prescribed it. It is a very effective antidepressant. There are around 25 studies that have been done over the years that have proven its effectiveness; the most notable one done by Harvard. If you search through Pubmed you will find most of the studies
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lovely11
Board Addict
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 332
Loc: With my dog at my side
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Hello Lisa,
There are others on the board that have much more knowledge than I do on this subject.
I do believe that Temgesic is the same medication (buprenorphine)but in a different mg. strength, but am not sure of this. I have heard of folks using the Temgesic for W/D.
I do know that Suboxone is buprenorphine with an additional ingredient in it to prevent injection. Subutex is buprenorphine without this additional ingredient. I know I'm not much help but this is as much as I think I know (what I spooky thought).
I wish you the best. If this is what you want to do then I know you can do it. Just set your heart to it. It's really so easy compared to W/D. Believe me!!!
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Lovely - devout dog lover
I wish I were half as good as my dog thinks I am.
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rara
Member
Reged: 11/16/02
Posts: 120
Loc: Aussie
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yes, Temgesic is pure buprenorphine 0.2mg sublingual tablets. There is no additive drug that is used in the other brands to prevent abuse. In this country at least this is a schedule 8 drug which is the highest legal drug restriction there is due to that fact I think.
Edited to add lots more -
sorry but this drug played a huge role in my life for about 9 months & not enough people know about it. Im talking about its use as an antidepressant .
I have been extremely treatment resistant; usually partially responding for several weeks then it peters out & Im back in the hole. Temgesic was an overnight miracle for me at the time I started it at a dose of 1.2mg per day. 9 months of effectiveness is waaaay longer than any conventional antidepressant has helped me & Ive taken the lot & the combinations & all the rest.
I discovered this
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/
msg board site some years ago, its run by a very ethical psychiatrist & bup has been discussed in great length there over the years as an antidepressant. Its where I found out about it, you can find refs & copies of most of the studies that have been done on it as well as lengthy discussion if you do a search of the site. Search for bup as well as buprenorphine.
Sorry we're getting off topic a bit but as we're on the subject of buprenorphine I think it's good to lay out All the facts.
*** one last thing - never take with a MAOI or you could easily end up dead
Edited by rara (11/28/04 05:47 PM)
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lovely11
Board Addict
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 332
Loc: With my dog at my side
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And that would be Aussie Country I suppose, mate???
Thanks for clarifying the differences between these.
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Lovely - devout dog lover
I wish I were half as good as my dog thinks I am.
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Expat
Stranger
Reged: 07/22/04
Posts: 3
Loc: Pattaya, Thailand
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Rara and all,
I've been taking Temgesic .2 mg sublingual for back pain for a while. It's the only thing that kills the pain other than codeine for me. Codeine/oxycodone has a lot of negative side affects on me as does the paracetamol its mixed with.
Unfortunately I cannot get it any more here (Thailand). The doc will give me morphine but Temgesic or any buprenorphine is not available here - period. I don't want to take morphine for this! - the pain is bad especially at night, but it's not cancer and I've been addicted to heroin 30 years ago - I don't want to mess with morphine for anything not terminal!
I really want, I would say NEED is more accurate right now, to get some Temgesic sublingual. If that is what you have, would you be interested in selling it?
Does anyone know of a web source? I bought a "generic" from MedsIndia that was completely ineffective - maybe even a placebo. I used to get Temgesic from www.247-pharmacy.com but they do not carry it anymore - I think they are based in Thailand so that is probably the reason as there is none in this country.
If you or anyone would like to contact me privately rather than here, they can at
Thanks very much.
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rara
Member
Reged: 11/16/02
Posts: 120
Loc: Aussie
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fellow DB'ers. Its too late for me to edit my 1st post so Ive asked a moderator to do it. I didnt think about the implications of my comment & would like to make it clear that I am in no way advertising to sell Temgesic.
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rara
Member
Reged: 11/16/02
Posts: 120
Loc: Aussie
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Expat, I feel for you on this. It's so hard for so many when particular meds drop out of circulation; DHC being another much need pain killer that's no longer available.
Maybe an email to Interpharm who used to stock it would help. Although they arent stocking they are good people & may know who else has it - Im sure they all monitor 'the competition'.
My only other idea is again some of the Indian OP's.
good luck!
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Expat
Stranger
Reged: 07/22/04
Posts: 3
Loc: Pattaya, Thailand
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I did find Temgesic at Mexican pharmacies but at $8-$10/tablet which is 4-5 times what it should be, and simply not affordable.
If anyone should hear of a reasonable source of Temgesic I would really appreciate a post and/or a private mail.
Rara, you mentioned privately about maybe some concern about me being a newbie. That is not really true. I joined the forum 6 months ago and was a member before that - I think it was another name then - but could not renew my membership afterwards, so just rejoined. I haven't posted before because I had nothing to add. Most of the posts on Temegesic/Subutex are from people using it for withdrawl assistance or at doages much higher than I take. Maybe I should start another thread on Temgesic rather than Subutex - what do you all think?
BTW, Lovely, we have 8 dogs in the house plus several strays that come by for food and a scratch behind the ears - how about you?
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Steffie
Member
Reged: 04/11/02
Posts: 107
Loc: Southwest
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I posted on this a while ago, asking what Subutex was. I see that now some have posted that it's a pain reliever, besides. Does anyone know, if that is in fact correct? I know I want to definitely be off the hydro but I just can't stand the pain without it. Would I just be trade one dependence for another?
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lovely11
Board Addict
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 332
Loc: With my dog at my side
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To the poster asking about how many dogs I have...only one right now because my husband put a stop to it a long time ago.....we only get rescue dogs now. At one time we had two Golden Retrievers that were husband and wife and had 15 puppies the first time, 14 puppies the second and 13 puppies the third. It was the most awesome time. I fell in love with those puppies and could have kept every single one of them!!!
The one I have now was abused and abandoned. He's a chocolate lab with AKC papers and all and still the owner that had him previously put an electric fence around his yard and put the leash on Max and left him to learn on his own that he would get shocked when he crossed the line. When the adoption agency got him he had infected, deep wounds on his neck that he still scratches at a lot. His collar had just about grown into his neck. He knows he's been rescued. He's the most wonderful dog in the whole world and he loves his Mama. He's even jealous of my husband. We get a kick out of kissing goodnight, making Max so mad that he will snap at my husband. It's so funny. I guess you've figured out he sleeps in our bed. Can you imagine.....my husband, me and a 110# chocolate lab. We do have a king size bed but Max likes a lot of room!
Anyway, I got off subject.
To answer the other post, suboxone is an opiate, therefore a pain reliever. I'm not sure the difference in effectiveness between the two or a comparison of other opiates. All I do know is that it is the most amazing drug to "cure" w/d and help you stop taking hydro - if that's what you choose to do.
Sorry for rambling. Were we not talking old songs just the other day.....Lord, I was born a rambling man - The Allman Brothers.
OK - I'll stop!!
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Lovely - devout dog lover
I wish I were half as good as my dog thinks I am.
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juliah1
Journeyman
Reged: 11/08/04
Posts: 50
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I started a suboxone taper (from hydro) Tuesday and so far am doing great! love, juliah
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Steffie
Member
Reged: 04/11/02
Posts: 107
Loc: Southwest
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Lovely, thanks for your response (no, not rambling - I had a 150 pound black lab that lived for 14 1/2 years, he was like one of the kids!!). I guess tht this is not for me yet, because I still need to control the pain, even after I get off the hydro, but I wrote down the name of this med and when I'm ready, this is what I'll speak to my doctor about.
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lumbarwrench
Stranger
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 3
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I've researched getting off opiate addiction and Subutex and then shortly after Suboxone is the best thing out there to escape opiate addiction.
Several clinics will dispense Subutex/Suboxone paid for by cash only so everything remains off your medical records. I encourage others to look in to this. The Subutex negates the withdrawls then shortly after taking subutex, suboxone has an additional drug that basically sends you in to withdrawls if you take more opiates, so it's a deterrent for relapse. The process takes 1 to 2 1/2 months, it's outpatient and I've heard success stories of severely addicted folks.
One testimonial I heard was a person severely addicted to Heroin and was off it in 3 weeks with the above treatment.
If you want to escape, and can't dissapear from life with inpatient treatment, these are the miracle drugs.
Don't go the Methadone route as itself is highly addictive with even worse withdrawls that opiate withdrawl. I hope this gives hope to someone out there feeling it's time to escape the vicious cycle of stopping cold turkey, the withdrawls are too much to handle, then relapsing.
Ask God for wisdom and humility to make the escape, he will give it to you.
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juliah1
Journeyman
Reged: 11/08/04
Posts: 50
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I don't know anything about subutex and haven't taken that as part of my withdrawal process. I started from the get-go on suboxone and it's a GREAT thing!!! love, juliah
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lovely11
Board Addict
Reged: 01/03/04
Posts: 332
Loc: With my dog at my side
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It's the same drug. Subutex does not have the added ingredient in it to prevent injection, for IV drug users.....I think. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I understood from the doctor that prescribed mine. They are both buprenorphine, which is the only way in my opinion to prevent W/Ds when you stop taking hydro, oxy, morphine, heroin, etc. I've heard of many different addictions being treated with this one drug.
I was also informed by the doctor that prescribed it to me that it is an opiate and has pain relieving qualities. After you taper down to a low dose of the buprenorphine you can stay on that low dose for pain control.
As stated, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going by memory and believe me, my mind was very fuzzy when I was given my first dose of Suboxone and listening to him explain all this to me. I hope I'm not telling anyone wrong information.
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Lovely - devout dog lover
I wish I were half as good as my dog thinks I am.
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Expat
Stranger
Reged: 07/22/04
Posts: 3
Loc: Pattaya, Thailand
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Lovely,
Thanks for the tale of the rescue dog. It's always heartwarming to hear of the pleasure these dogs can return to their owners.
I think it has all been covered here before, but just to review: There are two ingredients in Subutex. Buprenorphine and NALOXONE HCL DIHYDRATE. As you said, the second ingredient is to prevent injection (it would be an unpleasant experience). It also "is indicated for the complete or partial reversal of narcotic depression". "Depression" here means symptoms like shallow breathing, slow pulse, etc.
My own experience is that Buprenorphine by itself (Temgesic) is an extremely powerful painkiller and again, just personally, - gives a kind of floating high similar to morphine, and has anti-depressant effect. However, I find that it can leave you feeling on edge and a bit irritable and it is good to be aware of that in advance, so if it does happen, you will not take it out on others around you. It does not have (for me) the negative side effects of other opiates like constipation. It is very long lasting compared to other opiates.
It seems like the last few years it is becoming more popular for treating W/D whereas before that it was little used in the west, but popular as a painkiller one level down from morphine - especially for chronic pain in Europe.
I've heard many different opinions on how addictive or not it is but the prevailing one is negligibly for most people and I would go along with that. Some, however, do feel that they became addicted to it, but even in that group, those that had experience with Methadone rated it less addictive.
I hope this helps,
Peter
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meowsie
Member
Reged: 12/16/03
Posts: 169
Loc: MA
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I myself started on the suboxone about a month ago; the doc i went to only does tapers, so I started at 16 mgs a day and am now down to 6 mgs; I do think this is a miracle drug, but I am scared of coming off it, I kind of wish this doc did maintainance cause then I wouldn't ever have to worry about going back to the hydro; as it is now though, I hardly even think about hydro and I surely don't want to take any; the taper was easy up until now, I'm not enjoying going from the 8 to the 6, I seem to get very tired at night, and I am trying to taper a bit quicker than my doc wants, cause he will only script the exact amount for a week and I would like to have a little extra left just in case! It's a hard time of the year to be tired though, I haven't gotten any christmas shopping done yet but i must say i do feel better than i did on hydro and i love being free of that little devil; it's amazing to watch a fedex truck drive by and not care!
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