537
Threadhead
Reged: 12/08/01
Posts: 766
Loc: west coast CA
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Below is a link to an article I found while I was doing alittle research on tylenol and your liver:
Death By Acetaminophen
I thought a lot of people here would find it interesting and informative, since many of us have to take larger doses of tylenol. It has some good info on how and when to take the supplement NAC. Hope it's useful.
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PlyrLacy
Enthusiast
Reged: 12/29/01
Posts: 242
Loc: Mid-Atlantic, USA
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That is quite an article. I wish I understood all of it. Are the items discussed for liver use available for purchase without a script or are these items something from a doctor?
Thanks for the information.
Take care,
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"Lacy"
Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt and dance like no one is watching.
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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NAC you can buy at GNC or any health food store. If you have a Whole Foods by you, they sell a good brand, Solgar. Twinlab and KAL are also reputable brands.
NAC is a must IMO if you're on high amounts of APAP daily.
-yawkaw
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lastyls
Member
Reged: 05/25/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Usa
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Yeah the article written was about supplements that provide protection and/or counteract the destruction of liver and kidneys that you can buy even at Walmart. But my question is for Yawkaw, when you get a chance, I wrote all the facts and supplements on paper to go pick up for myself, I'm wondering though, do you know if I do need indeed,, besides NAC the milk thistle & L-cysteine? The vitamin C and E I feel is covered in my daily multivitamin but I think I do need to double up on the C? Any information is appreciated and I trust if you know, you can let us know....Thanks! 
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lastyls
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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The idea behind NAC is for it to turn into l-cysteine, which then turns into glutathione. Glutathione is what gets depleted by OD'ing on APAP.
All you need is NAC. Glutathione taken orally isn't very well absorbed, but it couldn't hurt. Neither could extra vitamins. Will they have any effect beyond what NAC is doing all by itself? I really doubt it.
I don't really believe in Milk Thistle myself, I only take NAC with every dose of APAP-containing pain meds, and I've never had an abnormal liver profile.
Just keep in mind there is a lot of conflicting information about all this, made worse by herbal "experts" trying to sell you something. The articles I've read from reliable sources don't mention anything other than NAC, though sometimes glutathione in combination is mentioned.
-yawkaw
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lastyls
Member
Reged: 05/25/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Usa
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Thanks 'yawk''' Man, you always have the answer! Thanks again, I appreciate your knowledge and mostly appreciate you share this with all of US! Have a GREAT Night! 
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lastyls
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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I appreciate the kind words, but keep in mind it's just my opinion. I know a lot about the subject, but no one knows for sure the real answers behind what herbal supplements actually work in combination with each other.
What is known for sure is that NAC does work for protecting your liver.
People have a tendency to swear by different herbal supplements in combination with each other. This is made worse by health food stores and herbal experts trying to sell you something.
-yawkaw
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rainydays
Newbie
Reged: 01/29/04
Posts: 43
Loc: midwest
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Acetaminophen poisoning is a toxic reaction, resulting from the ingestion of excessive doses of the drug. In adults, dosages exceeding 10 to 15 g can produce liver failure, and doses exceeding 25 g can be fatal. Symptoms such as nausea and vomiting, profuse sweating, pallor and oliguria (scanty amounts of urine) are associated with the onset of acetaminophen poisoning. Jaundice and pain in the upper abdomen, hypoglycemia, encephalopathy, abnormal functioning of brain tissue, and kidney failure may become apparent as drug toxicity increases
Can someone do the math on this and tell us how many apap 500's it takes to make 10 - 15 or 25 grams?
Thanks........... Rainy
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dhc_60
Member
Reged: 01/31/04
Posts: 175
Loc: mo.
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does anyone know if NAC interfers w/ the hydro effectiveness?
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everything is going according to plan... its just not my plan.
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Mapleseep
Newbie
Reged: 03/15/04
Posts: 34
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Is what everybody is referring to as NAC, N-Acetyl-Cystine? If so then NAC is better known as MucoMyst and happens to be what is given to patients w/ APAP overdose. It would not affect hydro in essence, but Glutathione might in that Glutathione is what the liver uses to conjugate APAP (and alcohol) in order to prevent free-radicals and peroxidation (and resultant liver damage).
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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Here's the math:
500 mg is 1/2 of 1 g. In other words, there are 2 500 mg's in each gram.
So, in order to make 10-15 grams, you need 20-30 pills.
In order to make 25 grams, you need 50 pills.
Sounds high, but some people do it everyday without NAC or any extraction- extremely dangerous in the long-term. Just because you're still alive doesn't mean your liver is in good shape; APAP toxicity is one of those things where you can be asymptomatic until it's too late.
If you ever have excessive nausea and excessive fatigue (more so than what opiates normally cause), combined with upper right quadrant pain- get to an ER ASAP. If you have NAC, take some before you leave. Also keep in mind that not having these symptoms doesn't mean you're ok- for some people, they'll never experience any symptoms from APAP toxicity until it's waaaay too late.
-yawkaw
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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Yes, NAC = N-Acetyl-l-Cysteine. Mucomyst/Mucosil are the prescription drug name for it, yet it's also available in health food store/GNC to take as a "dietary supplement."
Neither NAC nor any of the drug/substances mentioned here would affect the hydro, so don't worry, you will still get the same high/pain relief you got before. The only thing being affected here is the damage from APAP.
The end result of taking NAC is more natural glutathione, more effective glutathione, and NAC's metabolites can substitute for glutathione in that they bind to NAPQI, the toxic metabolite that is what is actually damaging from APAP overdose. So why not just take glutathione? Some people do, but NAC is more effective and better abosrbed orally (compared to the others).
-yawkaw
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brenda1231
Journeyman
Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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I just wanted to add a notation here.
APAP poisoning symptoms do include upper right quadrant pain and nauseau, and as yawkaw said...go to ER if you have these symptoms and have been taking large doses of apap.
HOWEVER...these are the exact symptoms that got me put on hydro (w/apap of course) in the FIRST place!
Gallstones and Gallbladder disease also produce the same symptoms. I was pregnant when my pain/nauseau first began, so removal of the GB was not an option.
I was put on low doses of lortab 5/500. The pain lingered, and was daily, for a few days, then disapeared for a few days.(Most gallbaldder attacks come and go and last only a few hours).
I did some research on my own and insisted on liver function tests(and a lung x-ray after my baby was born ro rule out the pain coming from my lower right lung). WHich were normal.
So just wanted to mention, that gallstones can produce APAP overdose symptoms as well.
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Cheers,
B~
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SBELL
Newbie
Reged: 11/04/03
Posts: 35
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Great post! This is the kind of facts we all need to read. Thanks Again .Sbell     
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mrscoach
Journeyman
Reged: 07/29/02
Posts: 82
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Brenda - this is totally true. I had the exact same thing happen to me after my 2nd son was born - I would have blinding, cramping pain right where my liver was, and right before I had delivered the baby, we'd had an ultrasound and the doctor mentioned "by the way, you have gallstones." So I finally had an attack that lasted several hours and really hurt, so I decided to have it removed. About a year later, I was taking Tylenol 3 for my jaw pain, and every time I took it I would feel like I was having a gallstone attack. But I was quite sure it was my liver, since I no longer had a gallbladder. So I've been using the Milk Thistle for awhile, but have never had complete faith in it for some reason. I'm thinking I'm going to switch to the NAC after reading this thread.
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"I'm not tense - just terribly, terribly alert."
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LeighA
Member
Reged: 06/12/03
Posts: 117
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Great info Yawkaw, and as always thank you. I have never seen, heard of or known of anyone losing their life to this infliction. I am very interested hearing from those who have. How long was the person overdosing of APAP, how they were medically treated after becoming "liver ill" Just curious how common this is?
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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There is a post here from snakey who lost an online friend from it. I also posted once about the likelihood of different phases of damage happening- I think it was in the same thread. Wish I could remember the thread, might want to crosscheck our posts (I remember BlackCat and Dasani and gottadoit also posted in the same thread).
-yawkaw
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yertman
Banned: posting e-mail sources
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 76
Loc: Louisiana
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Try Milk Thistle caps. All walmart, health food stores have them. Its prescribed in Germany and in other parts of the world as a protector and rejuvanter.
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JayStraw
Journeyman
Reged: 12/13/03
Posts: 62
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Compounded medications of 10/80 are the way to go if hydro is a necessity. FEDXMEDS.com
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riofilm
Stranger
Reged: 07/29/02
Posts: 4
Loc: mky usa
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Very interesting piece on Tylenol and Aspirin! Thank you!! One question, what do the different ratios of HYDRO to APAP have to do with the potency and/or effect of the meds? Thanks in advance.
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bang123
Stranger
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 2
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I am a little confused about how much N-Acetyl-cysteine to take.
I have been taking it for a bit and I have 600 mg capsules. Somebody told me that if you take a capsule it reduces the damage from mixing apap and alcohol. I know the mixture is bad but I was wondering how much of the NAC I am supposed to take and how often?
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efffbeee
Member
Reged: 10/22/02
Posts: 115
Loc: usa
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take about the same amount as the tylenol youre taking. for example, if youre taking 1,200mg of tylenol, take about 1,200mg of n-acetyl-cysteine. but youre making a BIG MISTAKE if you mix alcohol with tylenol.
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mof0112
Newbie
Reged: 07/28/04
Posts: 30
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Buy some R-ALA also, its an antioxidant and does wonders for your liver, even regenerates cells. 1fast400 has them that i know of. Or you're local GNC =]=]
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chevyout
Journeyman
Reged: 05/06/04
Posts: 65
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ive read at another website that there is a way to preserve the hydro and extract the APAP if you want to...it involves using cold water...evidently, the hydro mixes with the cold water (somewhere between 35-40 degrees farenheit) but the APAP does not...a friend of mine used to do that with some of his pills: crush up what he was going to take, chill it down and let the APAP settle, filter the water to catch any leftover apap, then add his dose to juice or something...just neat to know info that people have done this...i suppose even if you get half the apap out, thats better than nothing...FYI 
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JBRONCFAN
Member
Reged: 04/20/04
Posts: 127
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Cold water extraction......been around a while. You of course loose amounts of hydro in the process too. To retain a noticeable amount, you need 20-30 pills to extract hydro from.
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