jaypasha
Stranger
Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 1
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I have just started year #3 with these guys and except for the cost, its all good news to report. They dropped the $25 monthly refill cost and lowered the 6 month consultation fee to $100. The service has improved and the pharmacy situation has been very stable the last year or so. The bad news is it will cost the average patient for hydro 15 between
$600-800 per month. I am staying with them.
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Tred
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/18/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
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In the process right now with them.. Thanks for the input.. Very nice staff and customer service. 
My whole thing is that I just want to be pain free and able to function like a normal person. Getting on this program will insure that I can once again be a productive person with a better future.
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PamiX
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 231
Loc: U.S.A.
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600-800 per month??? Are you insane?
I was paying 400. a month with them! NEVER AGAIN
Your addictive!!! That's what they did to me (15/80)
Never,ever again!
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Tred
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/18/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
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What do you mean by "your addictive"???? Also what do you mean by "never again!"...???? Do you mean you'll never pay that high of prices again? Or that you got extremely addicted to meds? Would like to know since I'm dealing with them now.. Thanks in advance.
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zeuzjuz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/16/01
Posts: 1155
Loc: the milky way
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As far as I know - MadisonPainClinic, although *extremely* expensive - is about THE most legitimate OP out there. They have been around for at least 3 years because that's how long I have known of OP's and when I came into 'this OP world' they already had a well-established reputation, so I guess they been around 4 o 5 years or more....
The thing with Madison Pain Clinic is they are geared towards the more severe/serious of chronic pain sufferers. People with medical needs that are even worse than people using the regular OP's.
They prescribe many more meds per month (3-4 times as many per month in some cases) as other OP's, and prescribe the compounded Hydro. (Like 10/100, 15/80, 15/100, etc)
They do this (larger prescription #'s, less APAP) - because they are around to help people that need STRONG and high doses of pain medicine due to being in more severe of pain than people who can get by on 3-4 norco's per day.
SO - I guess if someone is addictive by nature, they could feel that they were turned into an addict by Madison - because they provide more medications with lower APAP - so if one were an addictive personality, they could technically easily abuse this system and become addicted.
From what I interpreted Pam's rather cryptic post to mean - is that she feels like she was 'ripped off and turned into an addict' - by Madison.... But they very clearly state their terms and conditions on their website. And like I said, are probably THE most legit OP that exists. Infact you don't even have to consider their 'legitimacy' - they are like the CocaCola of OP's - they are the standard and have been around the longest and maintain the highest standards and strictest regulations to become a patient. I feel as though Pam meant that she felt that the place was somehow trying to push these meds on her in order to take her $$ and make her addicted. However, that doesn't make sense to me - because no-one is forced to use any business -
Madison doesn't make their patients use them. Their patients use them and are willing to pay the high prices because they have differnet types of needs.
They pay these prices because nowhere else can you get #360 10/80 Hydro/APAP per month - of course it is going to be expensive!!!! That also factors in costs of portamedics, people doing bloodwork on you (they are the only OP I know of that does actual bloodwork - most portamedics do not - Madison does - to test for illicit drugs I guess? )
Anyway I am just saying people are *willing* to pay these prices because Madison offers services, (not to mention amounts of medication) that other OP's can not provide. Madison is totally 'above the law' - they are basically a real pain management clinic with a web interface for communication. I mean doing bloodwork and stuff is getting rather involved.
They used to prescribe SchII's as well, if I remeber correctly, back about 2-3 years ago (oxycodone products) but stopped doing , for reasons I am not totally clear on or claim to know of. So anyway..... I really didn't get Pam's comment. I feel like she meant that she was 'screwed over' by Madison, but not in a 'scam way' - in more of a 'they made me take too many meds and pay too much money' - which I don't understand.
I kind of understand, because I think they *do * make you sign some kind of contract, or they used to, that you will use them for at least 6 months or something, see no other docs about your conditions, etc... (Do they still do these things?) I have never used them so can't claim to know any of the details or whether some of this info is still relevant.
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//zeuzjuz
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zeuzjuz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/16/01
Posts: 1155
Loc: the milky way
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I hope was not offensive to anyone (my post) because it was not meant to be. It was just an objective look at the situation - I am basically saying I can see both sides. They are legitimate, and cater to the more sever pain sufferer - but they *could* be 'looked at' as pill pushers since they are making so much money and prescribing extremely high doses of hydrocodone.....
I will say one thing in the negative about Madison, contrary to my above post talking of their legitimacy (whic IS true), as well as the fact that a patient has the choice to use them, knowinng full and well the terms and conditions, so I could not agree with anyone saying that *anyone* or any place turned them into an addict. Only a person does that to themselves.
The negative thing is this - No normal pain management clinic would prescribe #360 hydro 15mg per month to a chronic pain patient (none that I know of) - this is why drugs like Oxycontin, Dilaudid, Fentanyl, the other strongger opioids, exist.... So at the point of needing 180mg's of hydro/apap per day just to function - it would be time to move up to something stronger, a SchII, probably Oxycontin. But not stay on hydro with kind of tolerance, not to meantioon the APAP even at low levels can not be good over a long period of time for anyone, taking any amount. So I don't really understand that. It is like they are trying to play both roles. ( Be a serious chronic pain management clinic, but also use the internet as the medium, which restrics them to only prescribing SchIII medications, which kind of greatly limits the 'pain management' aspect)
On the earlier subject....
No one can turn any one into an addict, or even attempt to. Taking medication is a personal choice. Every time you pick up a pill and put it in your mouth it is choice, because you want to. Yes addiction and withdrawal are bad. But it is well-known that opiate addiction does not/can not kill someone. It will just be really bad feeling for a few days. No matter how big the addiction. The withdrawl will last a week at most although a bigger addiction would obviously lead to a worse withdrawal. But someone makes the choice to get in that situation and whether one can put the pills down cold-turkey or not, is simply a question of how strong and brave that person is (mentally) -
Anyone can stop *anything* *anytime*. That said - I do not think OP's are turning people into addicts at all (in general not just MPC) - although I do think there are people around (maybe alot?) that are allowing themselves to become addicts due to the availability, which is bad.
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//zeuzjuz
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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Quote:
It will just be really bad feeling for a few days. No matter how big the addiction. The withdrawl will last a week at most although a bigger addiction would obviously lead to a worse withdrawal. But someone makes the choice to get in that situation and whether one can put the pills down cold-turkey or not, is simply a question of how strong and brave that person is (mentally) -
Anyone can stop *anything* *anytime*.
I respectfully disagree. If opiate withdrawal only lasted a few days, it would be incredibly simple to thread, and we would not need methadone clinics. The WORST part of opiate withdrawal is NOT the physical part, nor is it that first week. Those few days could be treated on an outpatient basis just like the flu.
The worst part of opiate withdrawal is the long-lasting depression that follows it. If you have been using high doses like we are talking about here for over a year, you can expect a "void" feeling, a kind of emotional boredom unresponsive to any modern antidepressant. Yes, your opiate receptors are clean and you are not shaking with diarrhea, but you are miserable and cannot be made happy. THIS is the worst part of opiate withdrawal, and THIS is why people relapse. There would not be many addicts if all that happened after cold-turkey'ing opiates was 3 days of severe flu symptoms. It is not that people want to get high after this period, it is that they cannot be happy and have a depression ON TOP of whatever drove them to opiates in the first place and ON TOP of the psychological upheaval of switching from constant analgesic bliss to sobriety.
I'm not point this out to be a smarta$$, I'm point it out so any newbies who read this will not jump into opiate addiction thinking that the hardcores are just weak-minded people who could quit at any time; they have to know that there is far more to opiate addiction and habituation than just those 3-7 days of physical withdrawal.
-yawkaw
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zeuzjuz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/16/01
Posts: 1155
Loc: the milky way
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Not taken offensively at all - and actually I totally agree.... I didn't talk about the psychological aspect of getting off long-term, high-dose opioids and that was a mistake on my part. I have been taking hydro daily for over 3 years now, and I actually did stop once , for longer than just a 'holiday' (stopped for 3 months) - I thought I was going to stop taking them. And yes, I did experience almost exactly the type of psycholgical trauma you described. I do not take your post offensively at all, I think it needed to be added to the conversation because you're right it IS the hardest part of dependence on opioids. Thanks for bringing up something that needed to be.
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//zeuzjuz
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Tred
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/18/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
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Thank you both for your posts. I agree completely with all you guys/gals said. I'm fully aware of the risks involved with opiate therapy and accept the potential risk of dependency, ect. I've already done a lot of research on other methods of pain control and also ways to ease into a non-opiate lifestyle. Buprenex and Ultram are administered for six weeks with a slow tapper, until no meds are needed. This seems like the best way to minimize the unwanted side effects of stopping opiates after a long run. I guess time will tell, but I can say life has become a lot better after starting this pain control method. Again, thanks for all your input. 
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voyager
Old Hand
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 416
Loc: United States Virgin Islands
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What I don't agree with at madison is they actually double charge you for the medicine. Not only are they charging for their services (which I still think is expensive, but they get the pharmacy to make the meds for you then double the retail price of what the pharmacy charges you for the pills). In other words they get you going both ways.
I have had the 15/80's from Madison and they are No better than the Norco's. I find it hard to believe that they really do contain 15 mg of hydro but I guess if they had 660 mg of APAP they would be much stronger.
If you want to go the route of this type of pain management, go with Dr. Watson @ expain. She is roughly half (or less) of the price because you don't have to pay that OUTRAGEOUS price for the meds.
Dr. Williams (in California) will also prescribe the 15/80's although no where near as many and he also has to have good records. But his price is much better.
Who in the world can afford to pay those rip off prices that madison charges??? 
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pescado1
Journeyman
Reged: 07/22/03
Posts: 86
Loc: The Southwest
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Actually what I think PamX was tring to say was that Madison Pain Clinic called her an addict and then cut her off.
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"One man gathers what another man spills"
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Tred
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/18/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
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Hmmmm.. That wouldn't be good to enter their program, to only find out they would cut you off before their timeframe said. The main reasons I am so interested in Madison is that they really try to play by the book. I'm tired of all this unknown future of OP's and don't want to find out 2 months from now, that OP's won't be able to do this. Yes they are expensive, but the price also cover's the low apap compound cost, ect. I do wonder about their quality though.. Someone said the 15/80's are no better than norco's. Can someone else give any feedback about their quality compaired to other meds?? Anyway, the price may be too much to handle, but I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens. No, I'm not rich at all, but I figure $400 a month isn't that bad of a price.
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RonnnieNwolf
Journeyman
Reged: 05/27/02
Posts: 87
Loc: North East USA
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Quote:
It will just be really bad feeling for a few days. No matter how big the addiction. The withdrawl will last a week at most although a bigger addiction would obviously lead to a worse withdrawal. But someone makes the choice to get in that situation and whether one can put the pills down cold-turkey or not, is simply a question of how strong and brave that person is (mentally)
I would agree and disagree with this statement. I have been taking hydrocodone compounds for approximately two - three years. It has been a life saver to me. I ask myslef if I am chemically dependant, and the answer is: I am addicted to NOT FEELING PAIN. I tried many other medications that were not opiate based, but they did not address the pain. I know I need these medications to function, to be able to work and live a productive life. Did I ever go cold turkey? You bet! Each time I was sick in bed for a week and had the runs like the devil. But in the long run, the witdrawal was not as half as bad as feeling the full threshold of pain in my body. A car accident in 1996 damaged the cervical and lumbar disks in my neck and spine with nerve compression. Do I want to be dependant on pills to live - hell no, but I am not left with a choice. My physical pain outweighs the fact that I need opiate based medications. I must consider myself a "drug seeker" because it is this particular type of medication that helps - so far, it is the only one. I wish to God I never had to take them. When I was a young adult, I never took Tylenol unless it was absolutely necessarry. I was the oddball that never enjoyed recreational drugs in the wild '70s. I guess my point here is that not all "drug seekers" should be considered psychologically dependant addicts. Yes, chronic pain patients are frequently labeled as addicts, but most of us are just looking to be free from the very real pain in our bodies. We suffer not only the physical pain, but the emotional pain of being labeled as something unsavory, dark and foul - a drug addict. We experience the guilt of knowing that we are addicted to the medications, but it is for survival - not recreation. I just wanted to toss this into the arena here in case it could be useful to someone else. 
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Be well and pain free,
RonnieNwolf
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PamiX
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 231
Loc: U.S.A.
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pescado1
I hate to differ with you but, I cut them off.
I got laid off from my job and could not afford the $400.00 a month any longer.
IM sorry if I affened anyone here . Iam an addict, to pain
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PamiX
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 231
Loc: U.S.A.
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I would like to just clear this up about myself.
I am in chroinic pain, I have two (2) major illines and I HAVE to take meds to work and take care of my bills, house, kids, husband ect...I was laid off from my job 4/03 (paid VERY well) Now I have a job making $8.00 an hour!
Anyway, I started with Madison Pain Clinic a few years ago, since my own DR would only limit my meds to 100 a month (5/500)
I had no problems at all with MPC, always on time, CS was great..DR was REALLY great!
Heres the problem..after I was with MPC for about 6 months +
on 15/80 hydro 60 per month. I talked with the DR and he felt I needed more, now up to 90 per month. I trusted them, I felt he had all my med records in front of him and he knew whats going on. I said OK, well, it was now 2 years later and I was up to 180 per month Thats a lot!
I could not function without these meds! It took alot out of me, not to mention the money to just say NO!
I could not take this hydro any longer it was controling my life. It seems to me (JMO) that they start you out on a few then keep adding. Yes, I was VERY addicted, My husband was so PO at MPC for doing this, but like zeuzjuz said...your the one that picks up the pill and YOU put it in your mouth, its not like that 15 mgs every 4 hours is alot!
You guys would not belive the W/Ds I went through with this addiction. IM happy now with a no recoreds op, this way I can say when, how...when needed. Does this make any sense?
Don't get me wrong, MPC is a really good op ($$$) but it seems to me that they want you to be additive Thats what it seems to me anyway. Evertime I spoke to the Doc he would up my meds. IM just glad to get away from them. I hope I didnt affened anyone, it just struck me bad when I see people that are spending all their money with them and I know with personal experiance what they do...sorry
GOD bless 
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gottadoit
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/21/03
Posts: 269
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Yes they are expensive, but the price also cover's the low apap compound cost, ect. I do wonder about their quality though.. Someone said the 15/80's are no better than norco's. Can someone else give any feedback about their quality compaired to other meds?? Anyway, the price may be too much to handle, but I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens. No, I'm not rich at all, but I figure $400 a month isn't that bad of a price.
Hi Tred,
I was a patient of MPC about a year ago. At first I was happy with them (despite the ridiculously high cost of their meds), but then the cs went right to h&ll and I decided not to renew with them. The story is too long to tell, but let it suffice to say that I felt completely ignored by them for way too long to continue to be a patient. In all fairness, I have to say that I have heard from others who are still patients there that CS has changed and is reportedly very good now.
You asked about the compounds vs. regular norco. To be honest, I thought the compounds were "weak". I don't know if it's because they had less APAP in them, or if there was just less hydro than they claimed. In my personal experience, the 15/80's were not as strong as the reg. 10/325 norcos. It seemed a huge waste to me to spend that kind of money on meds that were not effective.
You also wrote that it will cost you 400 per month. I think that you should think about that - chances are it will cost you a good deal more. The meds are VERY expensive and they up the cost of the shipping as well. Seems that MPC takes a cut of EVERYTHING (including shipping).
However, as several people have pointed out - they are completely by the book and are in little danger of being shut down tomorrow! If you have the money, it may be worth it just for the piece of mind. Someone wrote that they require you to sign a 6 month contract, when I was there a year ago they did not require that so you might want to look into that.
Also, just so you know, MPC has NO TOLERANCE for anyone who "double dips" and will release you from their program if they catch you. I read on another board about this. Apparently, MPC has a couple of back up pharmacies to help if the Medicinne Shoppe is delayed. The man who posted on the other forum admitted that he was using another op that also happened to use one of these backup pharmacies. When one of his MPC scripts was rerouted to the back up Rx, that RX called MPC to let them know that they couldn't fill it because they had just filled a script for similar meds for the same patient. One of the staff at MPC called him and told him that he was no longer a patient of MPC because of this. This, as harsh as it may seem, is just another example of MPC doing all they can to stay legitimate.
If you are thinking of using them, just seriously add up all the costs to make sure that you can afford it long term. Good luck!
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PamiX
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 231
Loc: U.S.A.
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THEY didnt' call me a addict, they MADE me one! JFYI!
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trey22
Newbie
Reged: 07/24/04
Posts: 30
Loc: new jersey
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well put dude.....well put.
it can take well over a year w/o any pain meds to be "back to normal" again. this is taking them for many months and even years. i was told oxy's are worse than coming off heroin. not cool. stay away. find other methods to deal with your pain. i feel so sorry for anyone that has to go through that. i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
good luck with this pain clinic.
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Tred
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/18/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
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I feel for those that have become dependent on a certain substance, but remember these folks aren't trying to make you addicts, they specialize in opiate therapy for long term use. Madison has a team that specifically states your risks, when entering a therapy program like theirs. If you receive meds from them or have in the past, you know quite well that they do extensive research on each of their patients and tell them the pro's and con's of what you are about to get into. I think the responsibility lay with the patient on the ammount of medication you are taking.
A person doesn't have to ramp up on dosage, just because they are allowed to if need be.. You have to have self control or you will get out of control as like with many things in life. Just be careful and have a strict schedule when it comes to meds and you will keep your tolerance down to a reasonable level. In the end, don't blame the OP for your own actions. JMO by the way and good luck and best wishes to all.
Tred =)
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PamiX
Enthusiast
Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 231
Loc: U.S.A.
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This is werid, I have not posted on this subject in almost a year?
Cheers
-Pam
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