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Vortex
Stranger


Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 7
Double-Dipping Clarification Please
      #172995 - 07/06/04 02:32 PM

What is the official rule on double-dipping when ordering from Florida pharmacies? I need to know this because I fear that when I re-order anxiety meds for the third time or so, it may be way too soon. What is officially considered 'too soon' according to the double dipping law? I'm very scared now after seeing that someone made a posting about being visited by the DEA and then deleted it (possibly by his lawyers' request). I never got a chance to read the posting and now I'm scared out of my mind.

Edited by Vortex (07/06/04 04:45 PM)


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Greycie
Old Hand


Reged: 07/08/03
Posts: 461
Loc: Pacific NorthWest
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: Vortex]
      #173007 - 07/06/04 03:55 PM

Hmmm... not sure I have an answer for you, Vortex, but I would think, providing you ordered from the same pharmacy, they wouldn't allow you to order if it were too soon. But then, depending on how long your Rx was for- i.e. 25 days, 28 days, etc. might be the deciding factor?

Hope this helps and I wouldn't give it too much worry- if it was an accidental error, they should be pretty forgiving. I'm sure somebody else could be of more help to you than I can. I only use one OP and they run a tight ship

--------------------
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire


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potatoboy99
Permanent Fixture


Reged: 02/04/03
Posts: 1199
Loc: Deep North (East)
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: Vortex]
      #173009 - 07/06/04 04:02 PM

Double dipping is a variation on Doctor Shopping, which is when a patient consults multiple doctors for the same problem, hoping that each of them will prescribe medication. This is illegal, and lots of people go to jail for this..

Double Dipping, as it is usually referred to here on the boards, means that you are doing consults for the same (or similar) medications from more than one OP at the same time. Those who do this run the risk that they may be ordering from two OP's that share ownership in some way, or two OPs that use the same Pharmacy to fill scripts, or two OPs that use the same consulting doctor. Any of these circumstances could result in the Pharmacy refusing to fill the scripts, and blacklisting the patient from future business.

When you say you are ordering anxiety medication frequently in Florida, I guess you mean from different OPs? If they are writing scripts, and you are getting them filled, then you don't have a legal problem.

And unlike Doctor Shopping, which is frequently prosecuted, I have never heard of anyone being charged with a crime for ordering too many meds online, or for ordering too frequently.

But watch out! Why do you need so much anxiety medication? If you're taking Xanax or any other benzo class med, you must know they are HIGHLY ADDICTIVE and very difficult and dangerous to kick. Unlike opiate withdrawl, (which is horrible to endure but is never life threatening) if you run out of benzo meds you could have a fatal seizure.

If you are taking so many pills that you're worried about the legal consequences, then you should think about cutting down. IMO.


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Vortex
Stranger


Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 7
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: potatoboy99]
      #173013 - 07/06/04 04:41 PM

But isn't all of that irrelevent? In other words, I thought all 17,000 of Florida's pharmacies were part of a network that automatically reports each filled RX to a central database that the feds use to track 'doctor shopping' or 'double dipping' - therefore bypassing any need for internal tracking by pharmacies. In other words, if you order an anxiety med (which gets filled by a separate pharmacy) too soon before you're supposed to run out (from the first pharmacy), don't the feds automatically see a red flag in their database (despite an individual pharmacy not seeing it and still filling the RX anyway)?

Let's say someone orders prescription 'X' which is 30 or 60 count and runs out a few weeks early - then makes an order for more from another pharmacy in that same state (a pharmacy that approves the RX and ships it out to him or her). What defines the cut off point for double dipping or doctor shopping if the orders are made relatively far apart (from different pharmacies) yet still overlap a bit?

Also, if one refuses the Fedex or UPS man's delivery, does the RX get sent back and become 'unchecked' from the central database as having been filled? The websites don't respond to e-mails or phone calls when I try to refund anything or ask questions.


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potatoboy99
Permanent Fixture


Reged: 02/04/03
Posts: 1199
Loc: Deep North (East)
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: Vortex]
      #173016 - 07/06/04 04:48 PM

Is this database actually finally up and running? I guess I haven't been paying attention. I've hardly been on the boards at all for more than a month, and I haven't noticed any posts about the florida database actually being implemented. I guess that's worth paying attention to then, Vortex.

Anybody know if it actually does what Vortex says it does? Track and cross reference all scripts for controlled substances filled in the state of Florida? Big brother is watching.

Sorry I can't be of more help


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dman22
Enthusiast


Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 264
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: Vortex]
      #173027 - 07/06/04 06:56 PM

If you try and refill your order with the same pharmacy too soon, they will simply deny it and tell you to wait. Not sure about other pharms though.

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patient2all
Enthusiast


Reged: 05/16/02
Posts: 293
Loc: usa
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: potatoboy99]
      #173044 - 07/06/04 09:16 PM

Quote:

Is this database actually finally up and running?





There is none, HB 397 was defeated.

From the VIP board 05/04/04:

Quote:

TALLAHASSEE · Worries about patient privacy drove Florida legislators Friday to block passage of a bill calling for a government-run prescription drug database.
But legislators agreed, in a separate bill, to give state health officials more powers to fight prescription drug abuse and Medicaid fraud.




It's worth joining the VIP board.

--------------------
patient2all

It's a sad world, getting sadder by the day....


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Wilmato69
Stranger


Reged: 05/28/04
Posts: 22
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: patient2all]
      #173191 - 07/07/04 05:14 PM

I think Florida is one of the last states to NOT have a central database - and I hope they NEVER do!! If you run out a few days before your script fill date you can go to a different RX and get it filled (originals not refills) as it should be.... who can guarantee they will not have to take an extra norco in the middle of the nigh to get some rest? No one that I know off..... then there are rare people like myself whose bodies metabolize medications 4x faster than normal people (ex: I weigh 160lbs but I have to have doses as if I were 425lbs - see my point?)! This rare condition I dont think many docs would take into consideration, but this "condition" almost cost me my life because they weren't giving me enough antibiotics to kill a hospital accquired infection!! Also has resulted in 3 additiona surgeries!! My doc take good care of me now, I think to avoid malpractice suit as if he had done the proper testing Atleast1 of the surgeries could have been avoided!! He asked me "I bet you can drink anyone under the table (I can) and I laughed and agreed, but I don't really drink?!?! Good luck!!

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PIGINPAIN
Journeyman


Reged: 06/10/04
Posts: 85
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: potatoboy99]
      #173495 - 07/09/04 10:03 AM

Florida is one of the few "doctor shopping" states. Most states simply say, as the federal laws say, that you can't use fraud to obtain a prescription. The media made the phrase "doctor shopping" the catch phrase. There was another thread on this recently. Several of us conducted searches of "doctor shopping" in the FL,CA, and AZ state statute services and could not find the phrase used in any of the laws. Not saying it isn't there, but if it is, it is well hidden. FL does say in a few press releases from the AG that they are stepping up enforcement of doctor shopping, but this is just a phrase that covers a series of acts that constitute a crime as oppossed to a literal "you are under arrest for doctor shopping."

It is really about common sense. If you go to doctor "A" and they prescribe 30 hydro 5/500 for back pain, the next day you are still in pain and see doctor "B" who prescibes 60 norco 10/500, the next day you are still in pain so you go see doctor "C" who gives you Vicoprofin 7.5/200 and finally you go back to "A" on day four because you are still in pain and "A" gives you 60 hydro 5/500 but ups the frequency and quantity your supposed to take. If you told each doctor along the way what you were diagnosised with, who you saw, what they said/did, and names,#'s,directions of meds they gave you then you probably are safe(99.99%).

Same scenario, but this time you don't tell any of the doctors about the other doctors or their treatment. This could get you into trouble. Suppose the same scenario above, but this time all of the docs gave you the same meds, but each increased the quantity and decreased the intervals, is this ok, yes. So long as you tell each about the other.

This is based on CA law and Federal regs, you should check your own state for particulars. I can tell you that in the other thread several of us researched FL due to a debate and there was nothing found other than fraud issues as previously mentioned. Honestly, unless your talking about large quantities and/or long period of times that you are seeing multiple doctors for same problem I serious doubt your local LE has the time to deal with it, I know my department doesn't and FORGET about the feds touching it. You have to get into the thousands before our local resident DEA/Customs will even think about it.

Final thought- We often hear urban legends about people getting arrested for "doctor shopping." The last time around we put out a call for someone to send a link to a story about a person who was arrested for this anywhere in the U.S., with the provision that the person could not have used fradulent means to obtain any of the scripts. I am very interested in this topic and would appreciate anyone who has a link to such a story posting it or PMing me with it. I am NOT saying it doesn't happen, just saying that I haven't seen a verifiable case of it. The story always is "a friend of a friend or my uncle's mechanic, etc."

PS. The DEA, at last count had fewer than 200 diversion officers, the people who work this kind of stuff. They are currently, according to their website, trying to hire a minimum of 80-100 more this year alone. Most of their current diversion agents are spread too thin with issues like checking pharmacies, pharmaceutical plants, wholesalers, doctors, etc. Their stated intention is to put at least 60 of these new agents solely on internet pharmacies. With a one year hiring process, 14 week training program, and 6 month field training we can all relax for a little while, but the storm clouds are visible on the horizon...


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Snowpatrol
Member


Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 113
Loc: NW
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: PIGINPAIN]
      #173498 - 07/09/04 10:14 AM

I would also add that the stories you do hear about (e.g., Rush Limbaugh) or arrested doctors usually involve someone ratting out the person, or related deaths.

When I first discovered OPs a couple years back, I jumped the gun on switching from 5/500's to Vicoprofen (different OP/doc), but didn't realize they were using the same pharmacy (TDI I believe). TDI simply said they couldn't fill the new order until X number of days had passed. Other than being a little embarrassed, I've since stuck with one OP.


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mizzzj
Enthusiast


Reged: 01/31/04
Posts: 232
Loc: Town of snooping Post Office
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: Vortex]
      #173563 - 07/09/04 05:29 PM

Well, my Dr's office lost my most recent records. How strange...One PO'd person here, plus my Dr is leaving the practice and I don't have any accurate or legible records. I will shop 'til I drop, but if a Dr. won't listen to me, I will tell them to kiss my @ss, and move on to the next. If I have to deal with a negligent quake, who feels that people should suffer, and that pain and anxiety don't exist, I'll give them some good ideas as to where to invest their Mommy and Daddy's hard earned money.
So many of these Docs look too old and senile to use a pen, or you get Doogie Houser J~H~C~

R we having fun, yet?
Can U hear me nowww?
A person is a fool not to shop for the right Dr.

--------------------
If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


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mizzzj
Enthusiast


Reged: 01/31/04
Posts: 232
Loc: Town of snooping Post Office
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: Vortex]
      #173569 - 07/09/04 05:55 PM

Sorry,
Didn't answer your question. Using more than one doctor at once to prescribe the same med, so you can double dose or triple or quad, or more.
You would really have to be scamming to do this. I understand that some Drs are idiots, and a person only hopes to survive until their next birthday.
My final advice is if a Dr won't help you, just say, "Adios"
If they write you a stupid precription, tear it up under their nose; they deserve it, if they are not willing to help...
I believe that an individual knows more about the body that they have lived in for X number of years, should be listened to and treated with respect.

Just my opinion, or onion ha...
MizzzJ

--------------------
If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


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keystone
Veteran


Reged: 09/05/02
Posts: 586
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: mizzzj]
      #173610 - 07/09/04 09:56 PM

Male doctors whom are older (graduated MD school in the 70's is more likely to prescribe what you want, in my experience. If I need it, I ask and he will write it. This is all provided my history and symptoms match up.

The new grads 00's and higher are completely agaist narcotice. Dr in their id 30's and up will 50/50.


Again, jusy IMO, and in my loooong experiences.

Keystone.

--------------------
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he never existed.


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mizzzj
Enthusiast


Reged: 01/31/04
Posts: 232
Loc: Town of snooping Post Office
Re: Double-Dipping Clarification Please [Re: keystone]
      #173648 - 07/10/04 06:01 AM

Interesting point. I need to find an older established Doc. Problem is, they seldom take new patients. I guess I need an old hippie Dr. LOL
It really does make sense though. A good Dr is hard to find.
MizzzJ

--------------------
If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


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