redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
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I would like to know if anyone has any ideas or opinions on the following:
Like dominos falling, US Online Pharmacies are taken down, one after another, chiefly by the DEA.
The question has come up whether clients on OP's lists will be targeted by DEA, police and feds in the future.
Now, I am no legal expert, far from it, however, would it be in the government's best interest to even go after users/clients/patients?
Suppose they don't like us buying online meds and arrest us, and suppose just one of us has a good enough attorney to not only get us off the hook but also embarrass the hell out of the drug proscecuter, doesn't that create a possible legal precedent for thousand of similar cases?
If anyone here finds themselves in hot water with the authorities, I think it might be a good idea to remember that you have rights, and you should try to get the best defense possible.
Nobody deserves to be punished for wanting pain relief and using their initiative to obtain it.
The legality of OP drugs is murky to some, clear to others. Although the "tough on crime" type-of-platitude is used that ignorance of the law is no excuse, we should try to remember that the entire population does not (and should not) feel the need to keep a constant eye on our ever-changing laws, which is what would be required for all of us not to be ignorant of the laws.
This gung-ho, tough-on-everything thinking is really tiresome, oppressive, and outdated. Personally I am sick of it, and I am sure I am not the only one.
But anyway, the personal outburst aside there, I am really curious about what you think about my legal precedent question.
Thanks,
Red
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nycalt
Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 551
Loc: Manhattan, NYC
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Well, first of all, I don't think you can make a blanket statement about this as we all know the DEA and for that matter the legal system in general evaluates these things on a case by case basis.
For example, to your legal precedent case, that would only hold true if the all the facts in the cases were the same. In other words, the same type of drug, same amount being ordered over the same period of time, as well as the mitigating factors in the case. For example if the dismissed case was for a 75 year old lady with no insurance and a history of diagnosed chronic illness buying pain meds for her personal use it would have little relation to a 25 year old guy buying large amounts of Vicodin with no medical history of need for them. The differences dont even have to be that dramatic.
That said, speaking generally, I doubt the DEA would bother to attempt to prosecute someone unless they have verifiable records of that person ordering and receiving large quantities of controlled substances that clearly were not just for personal use.
It just wouldnt be worth their time, effort, and especially, money otherwise. As I have mentioned in previous posts, they are interested in the big guys. They feel if they can shut these places down, they will have accomplished their goal. If they nab some illicit drug dealers who were simply using these sites as a way to obtain their product in the process cool, but that is about as far as I think it will go.
Imagine the field day the media would have if they did try to bring a case against someone, well, like the 75 year old lady example I used above. How precious government funds were being used to bring a federal case (which, since it involves interstate commerce it would have to be) against a little old lady trying to manage her pain.
So, unless youre ordering large quantities of a controlled substance (in which case you should be well aware of the risks involved anyway) I dont think most OP customers have much to worry about other than having a harder time trying to obtain their meds.
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menopausin
Newbie
Reged: 12/08/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Alabama
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Just hang on to your bottle(s) that have the script on them. I'm not talking about the ones ordering huge quantities. In Alabama you're legal if you have a script. You probably are most other places, too. Call the medical association in your state, by payphone if you don't want your number known, and ask. Have a pain free holiday guys! menopausin 
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I don't suffer from insanity, I love every minute of it!
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buey
Old Hand
Reged: 01/15/03
Posts: 453
Loc: USA
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I could be wrong, but I think that Big Brother is trying to take out the pharmacies and docs and make it impossible for people to order from these places. It's much easier to take out a relatively handful of OPs than it is to prosecute millions of Americans. I read somewhere on this board that 25 million Americans have purchased meds online. Our jails are stuffed to the max as it is.
If they take out the OPs, they have accomplished their goal. Most CP patients I know are not going to go buying their pain meds from some street dealer, so problem (in their eyes) solved.
As someone else stated, look at the bad PR this would cause as well. Hauling old ladies with RA, middle aged housewives with colitis, men and women with herniated disks, young mothers with endometriosis, people with blinding migraines, those on crutches and wheelchairs into court would not look very compassionate...and this is supposed to be "compassionate conservatism", isn't it? What a joke.
The pain march in Washington this year seems to be a waste of time in light of recent events. I do know this....if this crusade keeps up, the suicide rate is going to go up as well. I personally know of three people last year who took their own lives because they could not stand their pain anymore. One woman I am thinking of was an older lady with fibromyalgia. She was on Oxycontin prescribed by her doctor and was able to start enjoying life again. Playing with her grandchildren, doing her gardening, getting around to do her shopping....well the doctor got in trouble by the powers that be for prescribing too much oxycontin to his patients. She was cut off and was put on non narcotic meds. Within a year, she decided to go in to her garage, close the door, start the car engine and end it. As she was friends with someone in my family, her daughter came to tell him what had happened and why she had passed away. She left a note and said she could not stand to live the rest of her life where every day was filled with pain and more pain.
When they prosecute these physicians because maybe two or three people do something stupid, like overdose, take a medication without knowing how they will react and get into a car and kill themselves...do they even think of the hundreds of patients these doctors are treating that are now faced with a choice of living a life of excrutiating pain or committing suicide? Something is very immoral here.
How many people die each year from tobacco? how many from alcohol addiction or DWIs? How many people die from complications due to obesity? What's next? Criminally prosecute the people who make twinkies? After all, they are contributing to the obesity of Americans, which by the way, effects more people than prescription drugs abuse.
Here we have a terror warning from the DOJ. Says all Americans should be on alert because these scumbags are 90% ready to wage a massive attack on American soil. They say it could happen this summer. These people are in the US already. Maybe they should be turning their collective energies into fighting this very real and very scary threat. 3000 people died on 9-11-01 because of those animals that somehow got by the feds. Where are the priorities in this country? How about going after the people who are out to hurt others instead of bothering some poor person in pain, trying to live a productive life?
Again, I am on the soapbox. This just makes me so angry. Thanks for allowing me to vent on here.
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t_oshan2003
Board Addict
Reged: 10/17/03
Posts: 318
Loc: East
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very well put! I am sorry for you're loss..
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limper
Enthusiast
Reged: 12/07/02
Posts: 223
Loc: USA
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SOOOOOOOOOOO...soooo..so VERY WELL SAID buey! Do ME..a very personal favor and PLEASE STAY!! on that "soapbox"!!!
PLEASE..it does my heart good to see someone else speak my EXACT thoughts!!!
Limper..who can't get up on "the box" on crutches!(maybe another day)
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peteg72
Member
Reged: 05/10/04
Posts: 174
Loc: midwest
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Thanks Buey, that's the best post I've read here yet!! 
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And if the band youre in starts playing different tunes....I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
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keystone
Veteran
Reged: 09/05/02
Posts: 587
Loc: Arizona, USA
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Quote:
I could be wrong, but I think that Big Brother is trying to take out the pharmacies and docs and make it impossible for people to order from these places. It's much easier to take out a relatively handful of OPs than it is to prosecute millions of Americans. I read somewhere on this board that 25 million Americans have purchased meds online. Our jails are stuffed to the max as it is.
If they take out the OPs, they have accomplished their goal. Most CP patients I know are not going to go buying their pain meds from some street dealer, so problem (in their eyes) solved.
As someone else stated, look at the bad PR this would cause as well. Hauling old ladies with RA, middle aged housewives with colitis, men and women with herniated disks, young mothers with endometriosis, people with blinding migraines, those on crutches and wheelchairs into court would not look very compassionate...and this is supposed to be "compassionate conservatism", isn't it? What a joke.
The pain march in Washington this year seems to be a waste of time in light of recent events. I do know this....if this crusade keeps up, the suicide rate is going to go up as well. I personally know of three people last year who took their own lives because they could not stand their pain anymore. One woman I am thinking of was an older lady with fibromyalgia. She was on Oxycontin prescribed by her doctor and was able to start enjoying life again. Playing with her grandchildren, doing her gardening, getting around to do her shopping....well the doctor got in trouble by the powers that be for prescribing too much oxycontin to his patients. She was cut off and was put on non narcotic meds. Within a year, she decided to go in to her garage, close the door, start the car engine and end it. As she was friends with someone in my family, her daughter came to tell him what had happened and why she had passed away. She left a note and said she could not stand to live the rest of her life where every day was filled with pain and more pain.
When they prosecute these physicians because maybe two or three people do something stupid, like overdose, take a medication without knowing how they will react and get into a car and kill themselves...do they even think of the hundreds of patients these doctors are treating that are now faced with a choice of living a life of excrutiating pain or committing suicide? Something is very immoral here.
How many people die each year from tobacco? how many from alcohol addiction or DWIs? How many people die from complications due to obesity? What's next? Criminally prosecute the people who make twinkies? After all, they are contributing to the obesity of Americans, which by the way, effects more people than prescription drugs abuse.
Here we have a terror warning from the DOJ. Says all Americans should be on alert because these scumbags are 90% ready to wage a massive attack on American soil. They say it could happen this summer. These people are in the US already. Maybe they should be turning their collective energies into fighting this very real and very scary threat. 3000 people died on 9-11-01 because of those animals that somehow got by the feds. Where are the priorities in this country? How about going after the people who are out to hurt others instead of bothering some poor person in pain, trying to live a productive life?
Again, I am on the soapbox. This just makes me so angry. Thanks for allowing me to vent on here.
BUMP!
GREAT STUFF HERE!
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The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he never existed.
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bronwyn
Newbie
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 40
Loc: bluegrass
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Maybe the attack on Pain patients, doctors and pharmacies is the terrorist attack they are now claiming knowledge of?????
*wink*
I know that is kind of light, but how else could you classify this war on drugs? I live in a state where if you write even one script for 10 percs you will be brought up on charges, go to jail and lose your licence. In fact everything is blamed on oxy, hydro, and now methadone, and yet hardly any attention is paid to the bourbon, tobacco, and wild growing mj. These are just ignored, while real sufferers do just that - suffer. It's so bad I had a doctor question me about why I had gotten a script from the er when I was in tremendous pain and he wouldn't call me back, and it was due to an error his staff made. I told him when I finally got in that I had been to the er, they wrote me a 1 week script and gave me a shot, and that was the most pain relief I had felt in years!!! Two months later he questions it. This has become ridiculous! I dare someone to request the president's, vp's, ashcroft's medical records - I'll bet they don't have any problems!
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Bronwyn
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djshamrock
Journeyman
Reged: 03/19/04
Posts: 88
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I'm more worried about the RIAA than the DEA. LOL
Anyway, why would the DEA want to arrest millions of pian patients, if they did, that woould seriously clog up the court system. Also if they all did get arrested the government would have to pay for the pain meds of all the people in jail, plus pay for their incarceration. This is just silly. They have bigger fish to fry with busting, coke dealers and herione dealers etc., and they can't even do that. The DEA is losing the war on drugs,and to arest millions of tax payers would be the dumbest event in history, next to prohibition.
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cleve
Stranger
Reged: 11/29/03
Posts: 2
Loc: Near the water
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hey buey
i like your soap box!!
the federales need to use some of that soap and clean up their act!
thanks cleve
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Janbo
Newbie
Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 25
Loc: Northeast, USA
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Quote:
When they prosecute these physicians because maybe two or three people do something stupid, like overdose, take a medication without knowing how they will react and get into a car and kill themselves...do they even think of the hundreds of patients these doctors are treating that are now faced with a choice of living a life of excrutiating pain or committing suicide? Something is very immoral here.
Great post, Buey! You said it very well. 
Quote:
"Where are the priorities in this country? How about going after the people who are out to hurt others instead of bothering some poor person in pain, trying to live a productive life?"
I believe the priorities of the Attorney General currently seem to be:
- to tell doctors how to practice medicine
- to tell individual states how to run themselves (California, Oregon)
- to please both the 'health reformers' who want more laws to protect us from ourselves (ie: the Oprah crowd) and the zealots (who seem to dislike the sinner as much as the sin)
- Oh...and almost forgotten, to deal with that critical terrorism problem.
Janbo
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JB
Not really invisible - it just seems that way
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patient2all
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/16/02
Posts: 294
Loc: usa
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Quote:
Here we have a terror warning from the DOJ. Says all Americans should be on alert because these scumbags are 90% ready to wage a massive attack on American soil. They say it could happen this summer. These people are in the US already. Maybe they should be turning their collective energies into fighting this very real and very scary threat.
Next, we'll hear how buying from OPs is helping to finance terrorism.
Question: Why no major media news on these events concerning the OP problems? Anyone see anything beyond the few short mentions that keep getting reposted here?
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patient2all
It's a sad world, getting sadder by the day....
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arksmom
Newbie
Reged: 05/17/04
Posts: 30
Loc: GO TITIANS, TN
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I have had those same thoughts that we, the people that use OPs, are going to be somehow blamed for financing terrorists. It is so sad that we as Americans were finally getting over 9/11 and now we may be faced with another attack that could be just as bad or worse than 9/11.
Makes you wonder huh?
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Michelle
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DonBarba
Enthusiast
Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 298
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Quote:
Next, we'll hear how buying from OPs is helping to finance terrorism.
Question: Why no major media news on these events concerning the OP problems? Anyone see anything beyond the few short mentions that keep getting reposted here?
Got to wait till the DEA is done and has nice press release for CNN et al 
Don't want to give up the goods while it's still working.
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caramello51
Board Addict
Reged: 09/28/02
Posts: 311
Loc: Alaska
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Quote:
It is so sad that we as Americans were finally getting over 9/11 and now we may be faced with another attack that could be just as bad or worse than 9/11.
yeah the way our homeland security and administration is advertising the coming terror attack, it looks like they're pretty much guaranteeing there will be one....  
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redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
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Quote:
For example, to your legal precedent case, that would only hold true if the all the facts in the cases were the same. In other words, the same type of drug, same amount being ordered over the same period of time, as well as the mitigating factors in the case. For example if the dismissed case was for a 75 year old lady with no insurance and a history of diagnosed chronic illness buying pain meds for her personal use it would have little relation to a 25 year old guy buying large amounts of Vicodin with no medical history of need for them. The differences dont even have to be that dramatic.
I completely understand and agree with your point here, but if we just look at the statistics and the sheer numbers of potential cases (and, incidentally, there is at least some anecdotal evidence that the MIBs do come after us wee 'uns), then perhaps we are able to conclude that there will be some legal precedents set, allowing perhaps for some future unfortunate folks to get a foot in the door as far as mounting a reasonable defensive is concerned. Someone is going to win one from these guys, and a couple of hundred people are probably going to be in a very similar, in not almost identical situation.
My layman's reasoning is somewhere in this realm: if someone like Rush Limbaugh manages to order 1000 illegal OxyContin, yet can manage to escape sentencing, then it must not be in the realm of the impossible that a person ordering #90 Norcos from a "grey area pharmacy" could be set free too? See my point there?
I am just trying to think logically, and I hope that at this late hour I still am.
And partly, I am just wishfully thinking, of course, just in case 10,000 task forces conduct nationwide crackdowns on sick people ordering Vicodin and Tylenol #3, God forbid.
Have a good night!
Redhill
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patient2all
Enthusiast
Reged: 05/16/02
Posts: 294
Loc: usa
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Quote:
And partly, I am just wishfully thinking, of course, just in case 10,000 task forces conduct nationwide crackdowns on sick people ordering Vicodin and Tylenol #3, God forbid.
That would certainly turn the media in our favor. Imagine the headlines they could come up with:
"Granny just wishes to be able to hug her grandchildren like before"
"Last week he was working, today he spent the day sitting in the ER losing a precious day's pay"
However, like I've stated before, I really don't see patient arrests coming out of this, at worst, just more patient suffering. Even that is a worst case scenario.
patient2all
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2tellDtruth
Stranger
Reged: 05/20/04
Posts: 2
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The manpower needed alone to go after just 10% of legit OP users would be astronomical.
the prosecuter wouldn't pick up an unwinnable case no more that raiding a home with 5 agents armed with a search warrent for a few pills legally obtained is unfathomable. Maybe those who order from a multitude of Rxs from OPs at the same time might be address but Real Documented suffers would be a dead end.
What could they possibly gain from such actions. Manpower is just not there with all the other terror stuff happening.
Drs not addressing us properly to begin with just about forces us to use OPs.
Being addressed as a criminal issue at all using them sounds very unlikely at least.
The manpower would be staggering.
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devildog
Stranger
Reged: 04/12/02
Posts: 16
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I would agree with the sentiment that unless you are a MAJOR double/triple dipper or an IOP person - you have nothing to worry about. They went after Rush Limbaugh bc of the doctor shopping. If you are using one/two OP's and using things only as prescribed (without duplicate Rx's) they have no reason to even look at you. A legit OP user that privides accurate info on questionaire/consult has no burden to ensure how the MD/Pharmacist are practicing. The MD/Pharmacist are the professionals and it is their responsibility to comply with laws/regulations.
Just my .02
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