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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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A a good friend of mine recently discovered she is pregnant. She takes a number of medications including ones I personally feel that no woman should should consider becoming pregnant while taking, such as Depakote. However, I do not believe she purposely intended to become pregnant and I am certainly NOT advocating abortion (nor should that subject become ANY part of this thread!!!)
I'm not certain of ALL the meds she takes regularly, but I know she uses Depakote, Xanax, Effexor, Vicodin (purchased through an online pharmacy) and others.
I do not intend this thread to become a moral debate about pregnancy and medications. I am hoping to illicit discussion on the specific risks to the unborn children of pregnant mothers using medications--especially the ones I listed above. I am, however, VERY familiar with the use of opioid drugs during pregnancy and the associated risks to the fetus.
Additionally, I wonder if there MAY be legal ramifications in this state and others for a mother whose newborn baby tests positive for certain drugs (including hydrocodone) purchased through online pharmacies? I know for sure that in Minnesota, newborns who test positive for ANY illicit drug or unprescribed drug (and drug testing is a ROUTINE practice in all hospitals) will be immediately be referred for Child Protection and the mother may lose custody of that child. I do not know if this would apply to OP-purchased medications or not.
Once more, please refrain from making moral/ethical statements about this subject. Thanks in advance.
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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oldnavy170
Board Addict
Reged: 05/12/03
Posts: 357
Loc: New York
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I can tell you that taking hydro during pregnacy is fine if you only take it for a short amount of time. Lets say like a headache a month.
I personally was put on it during pregnacy but only used it as needed and not as a everyday use.
Does she plan on giving up any of her meds? Just curious.
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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Because you specifically said not to make a moral debate about pregnancy and medications, I'm not going to give my opinion on this person, and I hope no one else does. Let's make this more of an informative thread than an ethical debate.
Anyway:
I myself don't believe Depakote and Xanax should be given to a pregnant woman. Of course there is no guarantee of birth defects, but it dramatically increases the chances. I do not believe it is worth the risk, especially since it doesn't sound like she takes Depakote for any kind of seizure disorder, most likely for preventing migraines.
Effexor, like a lot of other antidepressants- we don't know for sure, but the dose will probably have to be lowered. If it's an absolute neccessity, she should stay on it.
Vicodin is no big deal at all, AS LONG AS SHE DOES NOT WITHDRAW. Babies are born to methadone-dependent woman every day all across the world, and they're fine. But, if she is the kind of person who orders from multiple OP's, and gets withdrawal symptoms a few times a month, this is not healthy. Withdrawal is what will kill the baby, not the drug itself (in a woman who is already opiate-dependent. The baby will be born opiate-dependent and will have to be weaned itself.
If this child survives unscathed, and finds out the drugs his/her mother took, you are going to have a very angry child. This child should never be allowed to find out about the drugs, I guarantee that will cause DEEP psychological problems.
This is an interest thread, night_shade, but I don't believe others will avoid turning it into a moral debate.
-yawkaw
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want2bcalm
Member
Reged: 04/03/04
Posts: 126
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There can be legal ramifications for women that have babies born addicted or deformed due to substances they have taken during pregnancy. A tough area. Personally I suffered immensely during pregnancy with severe pain for fear of hurting my unborn child. I often wondered if the pain was good for them? Anyhow, I think it is extremely important for this woman to get medical help.
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Dyno
Journeyman
Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 89
Loc: Washington
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Depakote.
Has several reports of causing birth defects,
advise checking with Dr for a better seizure control
Untill after baby is born. D.
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Wishing all pain free days D.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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She continues to use the 4 meds I stated above and I know she takes others (as I was over caring for her cat on Easter weekend and saw about a dozen pill bottles--no I was NOT nosy, so I don't know what all she was taking.)
She describes the reason for the Depakote as being "to calm" her. I don't know how a doctor justifies prescribing it for anxiety--especially when she is concurrently using Xanax? SHE DOES NOT HAVE SEIZURES or any neurological reason for taking Depakote. She said she was prescribed it for anxiety.
She told me this morning that her doctor advised her not to stop the Xanax or Depakote saying that "withdrawal could kill the baby." I have refrained from making moral judgments to her personally, but I have urged her to do some research on the effects those meds have on unborn children.
She said she is about 7 weeks pregnant. I REALLY hope her child is not adversely affected by the meds she chooses to continue.
Giving more information about her person will only encourage moral debates, so I will refrain.
I am especially interested in what people think about the drug testing of all infants and whether or not the hospital would consider hydrocodone obtained from an OP as "abuse" and report her to Child Protection?
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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mpcagh
Member
Reged: 12/27/03
Posts: 130
Loc: California
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Under the "Links" sections of this website there is a "Drugs and Pregnancy" link in the Drug Information folder. I don't know if it goes into the legal ramifications of this situation, but it might be worth checking out.
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"There's a fine line between love and hate, and a mile full of lessons in between." William M. Siegel, Jr.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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Yep, I am very familiar with the features offered on this site, but I am more interested in discussion. And I had found the Links section to be woefully inadequate for most of the information I seek about this and other things.
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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Dyno
Journeyman
Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 89
Loc: Washington
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The only other FDA approved uses of depakote are refractory migraines or mania.It is not habit forming
hydro should be avoided during the last 3 months
or the baby may have withdrawal symptoms as so it should
be used very lightly during the rest of the time. I know
that in the state that I live in, any baby born with
withdrawal symptoms the cps will be called in. Xanax
should be avoided entirely during pregnancy has caused cleft lip and skeletal defects, heart deformities.Effexor
reports of stillborn babys this drug should be avoided during pregnancy. D.
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Wishing all pain free days D.
Edited by Dyna (04/15/04 04:55 PM)
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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night_shade,
To answer your question, I don't believe it would be any different whether she gets her meds from a PCP or from an OP. She still has a right to privacy, and the prescription is totally legal anyway. I doubt anyone is going to ask to see the prescription bottle and be like "alright, did you REALLY not see this doctor in person?"- no one is going to take the time to bother.
Something just crossed my mind though- she IS definitely telling the OB/GYN about all the meds she takes, right???
As for as Child Protective Services, welp, OP Vicodin is the least of her worries. I don't see how or why they would even find out it was from an OP, or why anyone would get involved to the extent of scrutinizing it.
I don't know what it's like in Minnesota, but in NJ, DYFS (Division of Youth and Family Services) is notoriously understaffed and ineffective. You see articles pop up from time to time about how the case workers never really visited the people they were supposed to, and then the kid died from starvation, or the mother was a crackhead, etc.
If she can't or won't give up opiates, she should get on methadone because that's perfectly acceptable in delivery rooms and it guarantees she won't withdraw. Aside from that, maybe it will help her get off it if she chooses to do so in the future.
She takes Depakote to "calm" her??? I'm respecting your wish not to make a moral judgment here..........
Lord only knows what other medications she are taking, I doubt they are vanilla meds like Claritin. I hope her OB/GYN knows about all this.
Maybe since you're friends with her, you can check out what other meds she is taking and make a list. It doesn't count as betraying a friend if you are saving an innocent child's life (or lack thereof).
-yawkaw
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scissorhands
Member
Reged: 06/04/03
Posts: 168
Loc: Hell
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I had a close friend who recently gave birth(3 months ago) to a baby whom was found to be born with a Hydrocodone Addiction, she wasn't obtaining this med from any of her Physicians and failed to tell her OB GYN that she was taking it through out her pregancy. She was never allowed to take the baby home from the hospital, her baby is still in foster care and will remain there until she tests negative for Opiates for 12 months. She is allowed a bi-weekly visit with her son under supervision but that is all. It's really sad because she still hasn't given up the Hydro. If it were me, I would give up my life for any one of my sons, but she just doesn't seem to care.
I urge you to talk to your friend and stress the risks not only to her unborn child from the meds, but what she stands to lose when her child is born with an addiction, it's not IF He/She is born with an addiction, It's when...
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Baseball is wrong...Man with four balls cannot walk!
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meowsie
Member
Reged: 12/16/03
Posts: 193
Loc: MA
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OP prescriptions are NOT acceptable for DSS in Mass. Someone told DSS that I was addicted to hydro while my kids were sleeping at my parents house; DSS called immediately and told them to keep the kids away from me, I couldn't even speak to them on the phone; this was a little dramatic, they were also told I was doing other drugs that I wasn't doing, so when I proved to them that all I was taking was hydro, they let me have the kids back; they still investigated and found me in neglect, for taking hydro without a script (cause they didn't think an OP script was legit) I had to go for several drug tests and then the case was closed; it could've been worse, but it wasstill the worst thing I've ever been through, I wouldn't count on the script being from an OP as being valid when it comes to DSS
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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We are talking about a kid that hasn't even been born yet- I didn't say anything about alive kids whose mother is a drug addict. That is a totally different scenario- is there maybe more to this story? I'm sorry, I think if an OP script was enough to get your kids taken away, a LOT of this board would be in big trouble.
-yawkaw
Edit: I reread what I wrote and it has to potential to be misinterpreted. I'm not implying you're a drug addict, or that there was something bad you did that was more to this story, or that you're a bad mother- not my intent at all. I'm too tired to think of a friendlier way to word that, but you get my gist- was an OP script the SOLE reason your kids got taken away? I think it's important for other moms on the board to know.
Edited by yawkaw3 (04/15/04 09:35 PM)
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brenda1231
Journeyman
Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Okay, this thread struck me close to home. It brings up something I have wondered about for a year.
First:
I have a son who will be 3 this weekend.
If I remember correctly; when I became pregnant with him I was on wellbutrin and xanax.
I should revise that, I was scripted wellbutrin and xanax.
I often 'forgot' to take the wellbutrin, and just seldom took the xanax. In fact I think I only took it 2-3 times that I can remember.
One of my Ob's told me to stop the xanax, but the wellbutrin was fine and the other said the opposite. I trashed both of them, the meds that is, not the Doctors.
Okay 2ndly:
I also have a 12 month old son. I saw the same OB. I was not trying to get pregnant with him (Very glad I did tho'!  ), and I had my wisdom teeth removed under general anestestia. I was on percocet and Lortab for a week before the surgery and for about a week after. This was before I found out I was pregnant. So during the first weeks of pregnancy I was 'put to sleep' and using percocet and lortab.
I was petrified when I found out I was pregnant, but my OB was not unduly concerned.
I began having gallbladder trouble when I was 12 weeks pregant and was scripted darvocette. That stopped working (never really did work) and I was switched to lortab when I was about 5 months pregnant. I took the lortab throughout my pregnancy under my OB's care. My pain increased as the baby grew and put pressure on the gallbladder, but I stayed on low doses.
I was careful, taking 2.5 to 7.5 mg doses at a time, although I have to admit, I don't feel like I was educated enough about hydrocodone. I think the addage, "If I knew then what I know now " fits. However, I had (and still have) severe pain from my gallbladder, was at risk for miscarriage due to history (7 miscarriages), and followed my OB's advice,(I consulted 2 different Ob's) which was that the lortab would pose less threat to my baby than my being in severe pain could pose to the threat of miscarriage. It was more or less put that my being in periods of unmedicated, severe pain, could very well cause me to miscarry or delivery prematurely.
So I was taking hydro for the last 3.5 months of my pregnancy. I really had no clue this would/could be a controversial area since it was an OB that was prescribing it.
I was put on complete bedrest from weeks 33-37 for signs of premature labor. The beginning of week 37 I was supposed to come off bedrest, but Garrett came early that morning, 3 weeks early. He seemed fine in the hospital wieghed 6.8 (not bad for 3 weeks early), although he was taking away a few times to be 'warmed up' as his body temp was low. I had a difficult tubal a few hours afer birth and had no response to the pain meds they gave me. Stadol, demerol and darvacette.
When Garrett was born I breastfed, and since I was still taking the hydro, but not as much, I am sure it was passed to him thorugh breastmilk. I say I didn't take it as much, as I guess, getting the baby out, reduced some of the pressure on my gallbladder and the pain subsided.
HERE is what has really bothered me. Garrett and I went home as planned, about 24 hours after birth.
Garrett had trouble regulating his body temperature, seemed to have weak crys and I often had to wake him to nurse.
At 3 days I took him to the pediatrican. He was admitted to the hospital where we stayed for 5 more days.
He ended up having low or unregulated body temperatures, jaundice and an unusual urninary infection (they tell me it is unusal for boys). I confronted his Pediatrician, horrified, thinking this could be caused by the hydro. She assured me it was not, and I stayed with him at the hosptial, breastfeeding exclusively, but to this day I wonder if the apap caused the jaundice, since the apap affects liver function, which in turn affects/causes jaundice. At that time I was taking 2.5 to 7.5 mg doses. Avg of 20 mg a day, probably 4- days a week.
Despite being a little peanut when released from the hosptial ( he fell to a little over 5 pounds) he grew quickly and was a rolly poly heathly baby by 3 months. He now weighs in at the 90 percentile and is a happy, joyful and very smart baby. I still rellive the horrors of that first week, the jusndice and all pokes, pries and discomfort he must ohave suffered.
After the baby and I were released from the hospital, I was switched back to darvocette. I really didn't know much about w/d, so maybe part of it is phycological, and part due to the low dosages, I would estimate abg. of 20 mg. a day split into 2.5 - 5 mg dsages and occsasionally 7.5, but I had no w/d and noticed non in my baby either.
That being said, it sounds like Night's friend is likely on much higher dosages, and I agree with yaw that it is more likely that w/d will cause the baby more problems and possible miscarriage. Perhaps she could taper?
As for the effexor and depakote, don't know anyting about it.
Also, agian, knowing my old buddy hydro as I do now, I wish it was never prescribed for me and although hindsite is 20/20 I don't know that I would probably have made different decisions if I was more educated or knew what I know now.
Even after being assured by the pedicatrician that I did not cause his initial medical problems, doubts linger.
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Cheers,
B~
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dallasgirl
Stranger
Reged: 03/18/04
Posts: 3
Loc: Dallas TX
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Hi
I spend most of my time on the VIP side, and visit here occasionally, but I have never posted on the free board. I wanted to include the FDA classification on drug safety for pregnant women for anyone that might be interested.
Category A
Drugs that fall under category A have had several well-controlled studies that found no harmful effects or increase in birth defects. These drugs have all had studies conducted in pregnant woman with positive results. Very few drugs fall into this category. Prenatal vitamins receive a category A rating.
Category B
Drugs assigned a category B rating are not likely to pose a threat to the fetus from the evidence in animal studies, but no well-controlled studies have been performed in pregnant women. However, a drug may also receive a category B rating if animal studies have shown evidence of fetus damage but the same drug tested on pregnant women posed no threat.
Category C
A category C rating is given to drugs that have been shown to be harmful in animal studies but no studies have been conducted on pregnant humans. Drugs may also receive a category C rating if the drug was not studied in animals and there isn't enough evidence from studies in pregnant humans. This implies that the drug may or may not be safe to take.
Category D
Drugs receive a category D rating when the drugs have been tested in well-controlled or observational (not controlled) studies, which resulted in harm to the unborn baby. In some cases these drugs may still be given if the benefits to the mother outweigh the risks to the baby (for example, cancer treatment).
Category X
A Category X rating is assigned to drugs that should never be used during pregnancy, as there are no benefits that would exceed the potential risk
You can find out which drugs are classified as "C" - "D" - and "X" by researching that individual drug or by asking a pharmacist. My OB-GYN told me that anything "A" or "B" is safe to take during pregnancy. I was on Zoloft when I got pregnant as well as Ultram, both of which are "C" (according to the pharmacist I called). I chose to stop taking them, but anyone should discuss this their doctor or a pharmacist.
Jennifer
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sigmund22
Member
Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 160
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Night_shade,
Based on some earlier research
in which I participated, the primary factors to consider are: 1)whether the meds crosse the placebo (some can't permaeate it) and 2) if
2) affirmative, whether the baby metabolizes the med and is born addicted.
I couldn't find any information on the meds she has taken since not enough time has elapsed since the meds were put on the market and the effects seen. The only info is about whether the meds are excreted in the breast milk. It sounds as if the depakote may be prescribed as a mood stabilizer, the xanax for anxiety, the vicodin for pain, and the effexor for depression. Depakote, xanax, and vicodin can all have strong withdrawl effects. Effexor has to be carefully tapered down because its effects on the blood pressure.
I strongly believe that she should talk to her PCP or obstetrician to work out a new regimen for her. The OP factor is minor compared to the little life at risk. Also, it's very important for her to talk to the obstetrician b/c major hormonal changes occur during pregnancy which may change her need for more or less meds.
If she has shared the fact she is taking medications with you (as opposed to your just seeing the bottles), you might suggest a preventive approach, more in the context from one mom to mom-to-be. There are programs all over the country that offer in home services from the time a woman gets pregnant through the babies' first year of life. These programs are based in almost every hospital and family service agency. It used to be called "Kitchen Table Therapy" wherein a social worker or nurse provides education, support and answers questions. In the course of this psycho-educational process the mothers tend to reveal personal matters, their families of origin and and the therapist becomes more of a "friend" and form of social support. These program are known as Infant-Parent Therapy, Pre-Natal Prevention Services, Mother-Infant Support. However, I would strongly suggest your encouraging her to get in touch with one under the truthful rationale that she hadn't planned to get pregnant and might feel anbivalent about it for that reason.
The purpose of such programs is to avoid DCS intervention if the baby is found with drugs in its system. Babies are taken away from the mom immediately if they test positive, and takes away the critical period for bonding to occur. I have seen many mothers-to-be get off drugs because the infant fills a need that excessive (i.e., beyond medical necessity) med use had. That's why it's so important for CPS to stay out until all other resources are used.
Apologies for going on at length, but it's so important for her to ask her docs for help now and to get involved in a special counseling program. On all of those strong meds, she may be in some denial of all of the implications and might appreciate your directing her to professionals with whom she can talk and take some action.
sigmund22
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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Brenda: Perhaps my own story can put you to ease a bit. I had endocervical cancer during my 2nd (and last) pregnancy. I also had my appendix rupture when I was 14 weeks pregnant. Because of the pressure on my cancerous cervix by the baby, I was on Demerol almost throught the entire pregnancy (not the first 3 months, though.) Because my cervical cancer was non-aggressive (as I believe most cervical tumors are very benign cancers) they did not rush to treatment or expose me to chemotherapy while I was pregnant. I repeatedly asked my OBGYNs about the Demerol and its risks to my daughter. They assured me it had been used in pregnant women for decades with very low risk to the fetus other than possible physical dependence in the newborn. I had my appendix rupture and had emergency surgery with a spinal anesthesia as well. After the diagnosis of the cervical cancer at 16 weeks pregnant, I was in the doctors' offices every business day until they delivered my daughter by c-section (at 32 weeks.) On odd days I was given fetal non-stress tests and every Tuesday and Thursday I had Level 2 ultrasounds. In fact, I ended up having so many ultrasounds that my husband stopped coming to those appointments (was missing too much work.) The doctors delivered my baby at 32 weeks because the ultrasounds were showing little fetal movement and a supposed diagnosis of microcephaly (small head) was made. I had SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much guilt, thinking the demerol had caused this birth defect. Anyway, my daughter was delivered by c-section after an amniocentesis determined her lungs were mature enough to survive outside the womb. The greatest miracle of all was that she weighed nearly twice what the ultrasounds indicated (she was just under 4 lbs) and she WAS NOT microcephalic (they determined my fibroid tumors of the uterus had somehow interfered with the ultrasound's readings.) Because of her prematurity and her default dependence to Demerol, she was in the NICU for 6 weeks before we could take her home. Other than having been adjusted to the nursing schedule and being fed every 2 hours around the clock (which she expected once we got her home, too...sigh!) there was no other ill effects of the Demerol or my cancer. She was a great baby, didn't cry or fuss more than my previous child did at that age. She had health concerns because she was early, but otherwise grew into the Michelin Baby a couple months after coming home.
So, I am familiar with the use of opioids during pregnancy...and the guilt the mothers who must use them feel--especially when something goes wrong. I did not use any other medications except prenatal vitamins and misc. antibiotics as required for a few infections. Thankfully, my cancer was the type that could wait to be treated without risking my baby's or my own life. In fact, they didn't even do my hysterectomy for TWO years after she was born (trying instead to laser it off during a surgery.)
I have tried to communicate the very dangerous effects to her unborn child these meds my friend uses can cause, but she is (supposedly) being given conflicting information by her doctor. Since I did not go to the OBGYN appointments with her, I don't know what the doctor really told her. I am far less concerned with the hydro than I am the Depakote, Effexor and Xanax. I will continue to try to pursuade her to reconsider.
Sigmund: She has multiple mental health disorders and does currently receive weekly in-home therapy visits (as well as assistance cleaning her home, etc.) She did share with me the medications she is taking. I absolutely refuse to be the busybody type who reads other people's prescription bottles (or looks behind the shower curtain, etc. ) and so I do not know what else she is taking. Perhaps she made mention of thos particular meds because her doctor has already warned her of some danger involved. I also know, but didn't want to say, that she does not have pain issues for the hydro use. She uses it for depression. All judgments aside (and no, I have no idea what records she uses to obtain the hydro online from OPs...obviously it must not be terribly difficult to obtain), she is my friend and I care about her and this unborn child, as well as her two older children (7 & 9) to whom she is a single parent. Your post made good sense and helped put a new perspective on the situation for me. I will call her tomorrow and try to approach the situation from that angle and see if she is more receptive. Thank you!
Thanks everyone for your shared knowledge and experiences!
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Edited by night_shade (04/15/04 10:26 PM)
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SandyFeet
Newbie
Reged: 03/20/04
Posts: 29
Loc: The land of mint juleps, honys...
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Quote:
I am especially interested in what people think about the drug testing of all infants and whether or not the hospital would consider hydrocodone obtained from an OP as "abuse" and report her to Child Protection?
I find this an interesting discussion.
Should a new born infant be screened for drugs? If the mother has a history of dependency, absolutely, for obvious medical reasons. The deeper issue is whether or not to hold the mother accountable for her infants health at birth. If a baby is born addicted to a prescribed or illicit drug, should the mother face loosing her child?
Tough question.
Here is where I stand, for what its worth. I believe MOST expectant women want to have a healthy baby, and MOST women want to be good mothers, and MOST women love their children. Maybe some have a problem, maybe some need help.
I would like to see an environment that encourages expectant mothers to seek medical help without fear of repercussions. If an expectant mother fears legal ramifications for her problem, she is less likely to seek medical intervention.
I think the ideal is to keep mom and baby together. If a mother has a drug dependency, I think she should have the chance to get her act together - with some help. Hey, if we can spend billions and billions of dollars in Iraq, then I say lets try and help a new mother.
I do not believe that drug screening of newborns should be used as a weapon against women, or should be cause for legal prosecution. I also dont think it should be a reason for a mother to immediately loose custody of her child to the state -which, I am sure, will do a bang up job raising the kid. A more reasonable approach would be to look at each situation individually, case by case.
I know that some women
and MEN should not have kids. And in some cases, a child is better off in an environment away from the mom and DAD ( if hes in the picture).
The bottom line is all expectant mothers should seek
prenatal care, and ideally stick exclusively
to vitamins
...and plenty of Ben and Jerry!
Swinging a little to the left
..
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"When you can't change the direction of the wind--adjust your sails."
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sigmund22
Member
Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 160
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night-shade,
There was absolutely no implication that you "snooped"
With the additional information you provided, it sounds imperative that she get some more help to deal with the feelings about this pregnancy. For example, being a single mom, she might have a hidden agenda about using this pregancy to deal with the father (marriage/drive away). That's why a therapist who will keep her focused on the pregnancy is so important. You're a good friend to invest so much care and concern for her.
sigmund22
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symbiosis
Journeyman
Reged: 04/29/03
Posts: 55
Loc: USA
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I would think that if a baby were born addicted to Hydrocodone that it would be cause for concern. What the Doctors and nurses would do I can't say. I can almost bet that children and Youth's service would become involved.
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Missie
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wren
Enthusiast
Reged: 06/01/02
Posts: 284
Loc: up north & homesick for the di...
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I have read thru these posts and I truly hope your friends baby will be ok,I have to say though that the most appauling thing I have heard is the routine drug testing of infants!!!!!!!!I am outraged appauled mortified and I wish I could I could throw a few expletives in there somewhere!Is this something new?????? I have had 3 babies,blessed I should say with 3 healthy babies and truly feel compassion for the babies out there born to the mothers who are drug addicts,and yes if the mother has known drug usage or there may be any other symptom with mother and babie of course I would agree that a drug screen be done.But had they tested any of my babies for drugs with or without my knowledge I have no doubt they would have been looking at a huge lawsuit!I hope someone can enlighten me a bit more as to what "routinely done" means.I mean there are lawsuits out there now waiting for the Supreme Court rulings I believe on whether or not HighSchool students should have to submit to random drug testing maybe not even random,I am not sure.But on whether this violates their civil rights.I would not allow my high school student to be tested muchless a baby a couple of hours old!!! WELCOME TO THE WORLD SWEET BABY,NOW WE NEEDTO PUNCTURE YOU SO WE CAN TEST YOU FOR DRUGS!!!!!!!!!!!SICKENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just how new is this governments invasion into our lives? I am not having any more babies,but when I get grandbabies I will be raising holy hell if they try to stick them! Sorry to ramble but this is so horrible.....I think I am off to pull up some info on this subject! Have a great day everybuddy....LOve ,peace and happiness........wren'
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its all fun & games til someone puts an eye out,then its still fun ,you just can't see***
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debbrad
Member
Reged: 11/06/03
Posts: 100
Loc: Texas, USA
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night-shade,
When I had my first baby way back in 1975, I had severe morning sickness. The OB prescribed binidictin(sp). It didn't help much and I only took it for 3 months. As you know the first tri-mester is very important. I learned to live with the vommitting and carried a bucket in the car, threw up after eating at restraunts, etc. I even had to go to the er once for an injection to stop throwing up. Still gained 30 lbs. ( I can't figure that out). In my 7th month, a freind's tiny baby got meningitis. It scared me to death. The OB put me on 5mg of valuim at bedtime for the duration of the pregancy. That baby would not come out until 3 weeks overdue. I was the first in that hospital to have natural childbirth up to the delivery, when he used a spinal. She weighed 9lb. 4oz. I am 5ft. 2 in. tall and that was fun! ( right) In first grade we found out she had a slight learning disability that was due to the nausea meds. That drug is no longer used thank the Lord. What if I had taken it the whole nine months for the morning sickness. The valuim wasn't the culprit but I still feel bad about it. Please gently tell your freind about the guilt we all feel when the tiniest thing is wrong with our babies when they come in this world.
God bless our children,
Deb 
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sasi
Member
Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 116
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I am curious about just how routinely this is done as well. Is it just Michigan that does this? I know that when I had my baby three years ago that she was not stuck or screened for in drugs and I am in Georgia.
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brenda1231
Journeyman
Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Quote:
Brenda: Perhaps my own story can put you to ease a bit.
So, I am familiar with the use of opioids during pregnancy...and the guilt the mothers who must use them feel--especially when something goes wrong. I did not use any other medications except prenatal vitamins and misc. antibiotics as required for a few infections. Thankfully, my cancer was the type that could wait to be treated without risking my baby's or my own life.
You know Night. That does rest my mind a bit.
Also, we have some similarities in our stories. I too, had tons of Ultrasounds (with both boys for various reasons..which are off topic).
My husband quit going to the ultrasounds as well after about the 50th one! ; some which were for gallbladder (of course we took a peek at baby too).
I also had to wake Garrett every 2 hours to nurse, around the clock.
Garrett turned into the Michelin baby as well! Good lord he got chubby! Still is! People were afraid to hold him at first and then WHAM he was FAT!
He is also a very mellow, easy going baby.
With my 3 YO, I was under OB care for dysplasia (sp?) when I got pregnant, and had had a few cyro-surgeries. That is not supposed interfere with fertility. However, before the surgeries my hubby and I had tried for 5 years to get pregnant with no luck. (Although I had two older children from a previous marriage). After the surgery Ihad 2 children 2 years apart. (then got the tubes tied, 4 is enough).
Also I wanted to add....I think I left out in the first post, I did not withdraw at all from the hydro when I stopped taking it a couple of months after the baby was born. I also noticed no unusual crankiness in the baby. I was breastfeeding, and hydro does pass through breast milk, so he was getting at least small doses. I have no clue if this is phsycological, as I did not know that hydro could cause w/d; or if it is perhaps because I was taking small doses (2.5 to 7.5 mg.), probably an avg. of 20-30 mg a day, or it could have even been becuase I took darvocette when my pain began easing, and only the lortab when it was bad.
I have heard others say that darvocette had helped with w/d.
Now after Garrett was weaned, and my pain increased, I was put back on the hydro. And of course my tolerance grew. Now when I quite taking it I get VERY sick with the w/d's.
I am STILL working on tapering/holiday, etc....again off topic.
Anyway, that's my story. 
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Cheers,
B~
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brenda1231
Journeyman
Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Quote:
I have read thru these posts and I truly hope your friends baby will be ok,I have to say though that the most appauling thing I have heard is the routine drug testing of infants!!!!!!!!I am outraged appauled mortified and I wish I could I could throw a few expletives in there somewhere!Is this something new?????? I have had 3 babies,blessed I should say with 3 healthy babies and truly feel compassion for the babies out there born to the mothers who are drug addicts,and yes if the mother has known drug usage or there may be any other symptom with mother and babie of course I would agree that a drug screen be done.But had they tested any of my babies for drugs with or without my knowledge I have no doubt they would have been looking at a huge lawsuit!I hope someone can enlighten me a bit more as to what "routinely done" means.I mean there are lawsuits out there now waiting for the Supreme Court rulings I believe on whether or not HighSchool students should have to submit to random drug testing maybe not even random,I am not sure.But on whether this violates their civil rights.I would not allow my high school student to be tested muchless a baby a couple of hours old!!! WELCOME TO THE WORLD SWEET BABY,NOW WE NEEDTO PUNCTURE YOU SO WE CAN TEST YOU FOR DRUGS!!!!!!!!!!!SICKENING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just how new is this governments invasion into our lives? I am not having any more babies,but when I get grandbabies I will be raising holy hell if they try to stick them! Sorry to ramble but this is so horrible.....I think I am off to pull up some info on this subject! Have a great day everybuddy....LOve ,peace and happiness........wren'
I know that I had to sign a release with my OB that they could test me at any time for drugs, alcohol, etc.
I think they are testing for marijuana and cocaine mainly.
I do know that in my state there was a huge lawsuit a few years ago regarding the practice of drug screening Pregnant women.
That said, I used to babysit. One of the Mom's I babysat for had to undergo routine drug testing for marijuana because her baby tested positive upon birth. So I am guessing in at least some states it is legal and routine.
As for poking the baby to get the blood. I think all newborns have routine blood tests after birth, so I don't think there are any 'extra' pokes involved.
I have to agree with a previuos poster here. I am in the middle. On one hand, 'Protect those babies' on the other, I don't believe a Mom to be should be locked up, but should be steered towards treatment.
Uh-oh...I think we are breaking into the moral issues...so I am going to cut my 2 cents into a penny and shut up.
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Cheers,
B~
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Dyno
Journeyman
Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 89
Loc: Washington
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Most babys that are born addicted to drugs
need no testing it is plain to see. If you
ever seen one you would know what I am saying.
I would be more worried about the other drugs
she is taking these cause death and deformaties.
of babys.I have seen many women choose drugs over
family, friends, and children I hope this is not
what happens to your friend. D
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Wishing all pain free days D.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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Wren
When my daughter was born (in 1993) the drug testing was routine for ALL newborns in Minnesota. They did not need to obtain consent, nor did they even have to disclose that drug testing was even being done. In my case, a nasty nurse used the information to threaten me with (although it wasn't a threat as I certainly had nothing to worry about!) and that's how I found out it was even being done. Another girlfriend of mine had a child a few years later and she was on MMT...they told her the same thing about drug testing infants. I don't think lawsuits in this state would have gone anywhere as I DID consult my attorney after I learned that I was tested for HIV multiple times during my pregnancy without my knowledge or consent and also asked about the infant drug testing. I was advised that it was legal to do so and a lawsuit testing the constitutionality of it would be costly and unlikely to succeed.
I agree with many of the posters that perhaps drug testing should be limited to mothers or infants suspected of being positive for substance abuse.
Also, they informed me that the infant drug screens were done by urine testing, not blood testing. Besides, my premature baby had so many IVs (even in her HEAD!) that it wouldn't have taken an extra poke to obtain a sample for drug testing. But I would have been even more upset had I discovered they had poked her again for blood for drug testing.
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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sigmund22
Member
Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 160
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Newborn Drug Testing Varies by State
Drug testing of newborns varies according to state laws. In my state, the testing is somewhat arbitrary and skewed toward low income women. Some of the criteria are previous involvement with DCS, and a social worker on a case involving another child reports it; if a mother is getting pre-natal care and is identified as being at risk for drug use; if a mother doesn't get prenatal care she is targeted and monitored for not taking care of herself or the foetus; when she comes to the hospital for delivery; and, due to the overload of cases of DCS, some mothers charged with child abuse and are required to be clean and sober during a set time limit before she can have her baby back.
There are some small residential programs for mothers who need to become drug free; in some cases their infants are included to facilitate bonding as a motivator to the mom, teach parenting skills and provide social support in being with similar moms (studies show that women who become pregnant w/o stable partner are more socially isolated).
An interesting article from "Real Change News" in Seattle, describes a program there which treated 143 babies last year and is being threatened by major budget cuts.
Quote:
Baby Budget Buster?
In budget-crunching time, home that cares for drug-affected infants is threatened
by Jackie Renn
A Kent home (PICC) that cares for infants born to drug-using mothers is just one of the programs facing budget cuts this legislative session.
What is PICC?
Nobody knows how many babies are born addicted to drugs every year. They're only taken care of when someone is notified: when a social worker calls the hospital, or a doctor notices something wrong with the baby, or a mother steps forward to request special care for the child. One recent study suggests that only one out of four pregnant women who've used opiates, cocaine, or pot during pregnancy are detected by pre-natal or neo-natal caregivers.
Some drug-affected newborns are placed with foster parents trained to look after them. Others come to PICC. Still others, undetected, withdraw from cocaine, methamphetamine, or heroin under the harsh lights of a hospital nursery.
Withdrawal symptoms for an infant are: extreme sensitivity to light and noise, body aches, tremors, quivering limbs, stomachache, a pounding headache, restlessness, sleeplessness, dehydration, diarrhea, and sometimes the inability to eat due to being lethargic or not knowing how to work their mouths. A baby's diarrhea can be so acidic that it burns their skin.
At PICC, the babies are closely monitored in a dimly lit, quiet, low-stimulus environment. Plush stuffed animals are propped up in the corners of the cribs; mobiles dangle from above. Everything is colored in soft pastels. All the toys are donated.
Even though newborns are small, the average birth weight of these babies is four pounds about half that of non-affected newborns. Many are born premature. They are tightly swaddled in blankets, to stifle the force of tremors. Opiate-addicted babies are most fragile; they tend to be put on monitors. The withdrawal process for an opiate-addicted baby is generally treated with a low dose of morphine, which calms its stomach and controls the diarrhea.
For the babies withdrawing from non-opiate drugs like cocaine, crack, and amphetamines, "it's all about the environment, having a low stimulus," according to PICC's social worker, Donna Ellis.
Babies are released only after they have withdrawn from the drugs and are no longer in need of medical monitoring. For most babies, that takes about 30 days. Last year, 80 of the babies that left PICC were placed in foster care. The remaining sixty-three of them went home with parents or relatives.
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