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kimbell1
Board Addict
Reged: 08/20/03
Posts: 309
Loc: Route 666, Painville, Texas 6...
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I started taking the low end pain drugs like fiorinal because of headaches . This was about 1990. About 1994 I was put on Tylenol 3 for about 2-3 years. Around 1996 I was using about 4 Tylenol 3's or vicodan ES a day (maybe more but I have forgotten). In 1998 I was given vicodane ES at about 2-3 a day. During that time, my headaches disappeared because I was in a building full of mold and transferred out of the building but I then developed lower back pain about the same time. So I was kept on the narcotics.
My tolerance again built up and I have been taking hydrocone 10/325 prescribed for 4 a day since 1998 to present time. I found that over the summer of 2003, my tolerance again went up and to be comfortable (not stoned), I need about 5-6 hydro 10's a day. I don't need any more unless I did some heavy lifting or something strenuous because I have 2 herniated disks. I have just had an MRI (my 4th but the last last was Sept 2000). The new MRI was done tonight (3-30-04). My doctor thinks that because I don't respond to these class 2 drugs , Avinza or the Duragesic Patch at all-only to hydrocodone), that I am 'abusing pain killers." He won't try Oxy even though he thought he had intilally prescribed it.
I think that he is closed minded and will not try oxy which people swear by. I also think that the lortab has lasted from about 1996 to the summer of 2003 is a long time for any drug to work.
I have had 3 prior MRI's (1998, 1999, and 2000) and it shows a slow back deterioration according to my doctor. I am wondering (and nevous because maybe I am over using the hydrocodone) if my back has gotten worse and if so, how much worse.
I am also thinking of just saying the hell with the pain pills. Go into rehab if needed. Or maybe I need a pain doctor (I had one but all he did was give me shots in my back.
Question. Do you think I am abusing the hydro or do you think I might just be toleranced out?
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mermaid72000
Member
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 125
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i have had to ask that question many times myself. i got off hyfro after a few months for a accident and man i am feeling pain, but i kept taking more and more it was like 2 a day to 6 a day and still had pain. tolerance builds quickly and i was wondering what my problem is if the pills are there i am going to take them pure and simple. i have to carry heavy trays of food and my wrist is constantly messed up. after going thru wd's and trying to taper this drug is something i really dont what to get caught up in. do you think you have a problem only you have that answer in your soul, but taking hydro for that amount of time your tolerance is way up there. i really did not want to stop taking hydro becuz it made my pain bearable, but for me being on narcotics all my life i know rehab wpould be forthcoming. this is only my opinion and my experience. chasing pills is something i really got tired off.
take care and keep us posted
carol
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Question. Do you think I am abusing the hydro or do you think I might just be toleranced out?
Kimbell1,
I agree with Carol that only you can answer that question. But you have to honestly evaluate where you are at with your usage and how it is afffecting you life negatively? And are you really using it for pain or do you like the euphoria that you gain from taking it? BE HONEST.
I am sorta going through the same thing right now (read my post in norco withdrawal). For me to find my answers I need to cleanse my system and evaluate my life, relationships, and of course my real pain..... And do it honestly...... I, like Carol, have been on hydro short-term and if I can be hydro free and function with quality of life that is what I want for me. I don't want to be several years down the road with a 20 a day habit looking at rehab. That is my reality though, not yours.
Take care,
SAm
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catmom
Board Addict
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 328
Loc: Midwest
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Hi Kimbell1-
I totally agree with the poster who said that only you know in your heart whether you truly need vicodin for pain relief or are addicted. I really appreciate that you are honest enough to ask the question. 
Maybe you could try rehab & if you are too miserable, the vicodin is always available, unfortunately with its ever increasing tolerance issues involved with it. I think it can be hard even for you to be sure. Take care.
Catmom
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God, please help me to be the person my DOG already thinks I am.
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MadandMsG
Member
Reged: 12/17/01
Posts: 127
Loc: PNW
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Hi,
I think anyone that takes narcotics on a regular basis struggles with this. I wanted to point something out though. ADDICTION is very different than DEPENDENCE. We all depend on food, water and air....are we addicted? For those of us that suffer with chronic pain, medication is a very real part of our everyday life. Addiction, at least in my opinion, is when you take more than you need...when you try to achieve a "high" or when you are dishonest about your usage. We are all in the same boat and you really shouldn't be hard on yourself because your body needs to feel well.
Good luck!
Kindest Regards,
Mad 
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currtis
Stranger
Reged: 03/24/04
Posts: 9
Loc: New Jersey
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"Am I a vicodone addict?" Do to the time and amount of your Hydro use, you are addicted. It's just the nature of the drug, your body gets used to having it in your system. But just because you're addicted doesn't mean you don't need it for your pain. As far as abuse, like the other reply's said, that's question you'll have to answer for your self. You should write a thank you letter to your liver for still working after the constant flow of Acetaminophen. If you really need it for the pain than Oxycontin would be a better choice.
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Greycie
Old Hand
Reged: 07/08/03
Posts: 466
Loc: Pacific NorthWest
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ADDICTION is very different than DEPENDENCE. We all depend on food, water and air....are we addicted?
I have to disagree with this statement. Addiction IS dependence. And to suggest a similarity in needing food, water and air and narcotics for pain relief- we REQUIRE food, water and air for survival, we do NOT require narcotics for survival. Yes, they make our pain go away, but without them, will we die? Nope. And that is NOT passing judgement upon anybody, it's just the facts. One thing I've said before and will say again is that when you become dependent on a drug, in the blink of an eye, you'll begin taking 3 of the same pill that you used to only need one of for the same effects. The pills WANT to be taken. And when you begin to grow a tolerance to them, you will eventually start feeling the pain that you're taking them to relieve if you don't get enough. I am not about to say you're addicted, I do agree with the other posters that have said, only you can make that call for yourself.
Take care!
Oh, my edit: I will say one more thing- since I have stopped taking hydro. on a daily basis and am now only allowed 20 pills a month (I'm now taking Percocet as the hydro. stopped working some time ago)- I feel like I'm myself again and that I'm back in control of my life. I struggled with the same thing that most of you struggle with- the addiction/dependence/withdrawals and I remember crying one night because I *needed* the hydro. to be able to do every day things that I once was able to do without the pain meds. Getting myself back to this place was the best thing I ever did for myself. The first amazing thing I noticed, during the withdrawals, was "normal" pain. The pain becomes different when the drugs are controlling it- it truly does. To feel pain that I knew was truly pain and not psychosomatic pain was incredible. I know it sounds weird, maybe even crazy, but that's the first thing I noticed and was inspired by. And then to notice that, after some time, I no longer NEEDED the meds every day... that I was no longer feeling like I was going to die without them if I didn't take them... it's a whole different world. I know every person is different, but those are a couple of things that I noticed. Good luck to you all!
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
Edited by Greycie (03/31/04 11:03 AM)
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Karma2678
Enthusiast
Reged: 07/23/03
Posts: 200
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I do agree with the poster that said that being addicted to a drug is different than being dependant on that drug. It is not the same as needed food, air, or water. I do consider it to be the same as a person needing medication for diabetes, asthma, or whatever medical reason. A herniated disk causes severe back pain and why would anyone just suffer? We must live our lives we only have one to live. I know the cycle of feeling like we cannot live without the meds , but there are two different types of not living without the meds. Either you cannot live with the pain or you don't want to live without the "high". That is the question you need to ask yourself which one is your concern, then you will know if you should continue to take the drugs or not. Just my opinion.
Blessed Be!
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~~~ Karma ~~~
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Greycie
Old Hand
Reged: 07/08/03
Posts: 466
Loc: Pacific NorthWest
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I agree with some of what you said, Karma, but what I think people keep tip-toing around or flat out ignoring is whether or not they *needed* the meds as frequently or at as high a dose when they first began taking them. When you become dependent on a drug- you begin to feel more pain and the pain becomes more frequent. Certainly we all believe it's very real pain- I remember going to my Dr. and telling him how the pain had just gotten more frequent and more severe and it was a different pain. It wasn't until I got off the daily doses that I realized that the pain had to have been psychological. I realized it because, as I'd mentioned before, the *real* pain felt very different than the pain that was being created by my mind to convince me that I needed to take more pills and more frequently. I also don't agree that it's the same as somebody needing medication to control their diabetes or asthma as without their meds, those people could potentially be risking their lives. Without pain meds, we're not risking our lives. Again, without it, yeah, we would suffer and I agree with your statement of, "Who wants to suffer". Nobody. I'm a firm believer that if you allow your life to be controlled by your pain, then what is your quality of life, anyway? Sometimes we need the meds to do normal every day activities we otherwise couldn't without them. But, very few people have a condition of severity requiring them to take pain medications to be capable of laying down on the couch for a few hours- given the fact they can change positions when necessary. I don't pretend to know what anybody else feels, only what I do. But I also remember a point when I was on holiday when I felt, even merely laying down, the pain was so intollerable, all I wanted to do was cry and vomit. That didn't happen over night. That happened after months of taking hydro. on a daily basis and building my tolerance. Getting off the hydro. that frequently? I no longer "need" the pain meds to just lie down. I also believe that people *generally* don't take the pain meds for the "high". I believe we all begin taking it in good faith- it relieves our pain and, living with pain for so long, it's euphoric in and of itself to have the pain gone. So, we're sold on this wonder drug. But then, with time, the pain becomes greater and our need for the meds stronger and more frequent. It's at that point I believe a person needs to decide for themselves if this is what they want for the rest of their lives or not. If not, then you need to make a choice to change it or accept it. My .02 
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
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redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
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Disclaimer: Take this as only my opinion, as I am in no way certified in any medical discipline, and I am not qualified to make decisions or pass judgement on you, legal or moral.
That said, I personally do not feel you are an addict. But as others have implied, it is up to you to decide that.
To me, being an addict is something that happens when a substance controls you, rather than you being in control.
Such loss of control is usually apparent when it gets you in legal trouble, you become alienated from family and friends, and/or you plan everything around the drugs.
But sometimes it is none of those things. And sometimes all of these are present and you may still not be an addict.
Sometimes, people are in such pain all the time, that they become obsessed with pain relief, and as a result call their doctor frequently. The doctor, basing his/her judgement on multiple calls for help (or as s/he just sees it, for drugs), may decide for you that you are an addict. If that is the case, you may, in reality, be a pseudo-addict.
There are many people, including doctors, who don't believe in pseudoaddiction, and who feel they have sufficient moral superiority to claim that there is no such thing. They might feel that you are really just out to get high.
Personally, I feel that behaviour is nauseating and self-righteous, and causes much suffering. Of course you're going to want pain relief when you're in pain!
One more note: As long as you are suffering, you cannot be expected to make a totally honest decision as to whether you're an addict. If you're in much pain and decide wrongly that you are addicted, and you make this known to doctors, you may just end up one day without proper medications when you most need them.
take care,
Red
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Dyno
Journeyman

Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 89
Loc: Washington
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I agree to some of what you guys are saying,
I have not noticed needing more pain medication,
I take 3-4 doses a day
1 tab, I will not allow my self to use more my
goal is to be pain free not high. I do have
pain between doses on some days I just live
with it. If you are taking more and more pain
medication I would say yes you are a addict.
Ask your self, do I really need this for my pain
or do I just want it. This will be your answer. 
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Wishing all pain free days D.
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drewsmerdel
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/14/01
Posts: 1137
Loc: Nap Town
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Seems to me that with many drugs, tolerance and addiction walk hand in hand.
Drew
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Are you hungry?
Are you sick?
Are you begging for a break?
Are you sweet?
Are you fresh?
Are you strung up by the wrists?
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tone
Veteran
Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 558
Loc: Chicago
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im addicted to food, if i dont eat it my stomach starts hurting and i become weak and start to die.
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redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
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Quote:
I agree to some of what you guys are saying,
I have not noticed needing more pain medication,
I take 3-4 doses a day
1 tab, I will not allow my self to use more my
goal is to be pain free not high. I do have
pain between doses on some days I just live
with it. If you are taking more and more pain
medication I would say yes you are a addict.
Ask your self, do I really need this for my pain
or do I just want it. This will be your answer. 
This raises such an interesting point about how we see pain and medicine in the US ad 2004.
Do I want the medication to be pain free all the time?
So if the answer is yes, then you must be an addict.
This is the answer to most people. But it is not the answer to all people. Some people are in more pain, and not everyone can afford the luxury of going between doses and putting up with more pain.
It is a shame, that we have come so far in the field of technology and modern medicine, and on the whole we still want to withhold medicine from people because if they have more than one tab at a time some of us see that person as an addict.
It is a Best if kept off the board shame that we have come so far in our development of personal freedom in the past century, and yet we still want to make sure people cannot have all the medicine they need.
And it is a Best if kept off the board shame that if you want medicine in order to feel pain-free, when you can be half pain-free with the medicine you need, you are considered to be an addict, a scourge, a low-life.
It is a nauseating shame that this freedom to have a choice in the level of your own medication is not yours, but rather is determined by how pain-free some zealot with a white coat feels you're allowed to be.
It is so easy to label people addicts. It is usually done when we have a beef with them. Addicts are generally seen as a non-productive drain on society, but it ain't necessarily so.
Addicts are not bad, they are not evil people. And just because you want medicine for pain, doesn't even make you an addict anyway.
Many addicts want to medicate a pain that is not necessarily physical in nature (although a physical pain could be present also, and may even lie at the root of the addiction problem).
It is only since roughly 1960 that many opiates have become taboo, practically overnight. Do not for a moment think that that is due to a sudden influx of better medicines. It was the result of
a) a development in thinking that became more Puritan in nature, which stressed that suffering builds character, and it's a sin to enjoy yourself
b) new developments in the pharmaceutical industry, both on the frontier of drug development which ushered in the existence of safer, less harsh, less controversial drugs, not necessarily better or more efficacious. These were
1) a type of compound known as benzodiazepines, replacing many minor and major tranquilisers, as well as traditional sedatives and existing hypnotics, AND some opiates
2) Antidepressants, most notably Tri-Cyclic Antidepressants, on the heels of MAOIs (drugs that were Antidepressant in effect, but also stimulant, and in some ways even (that VILE EVIL) euphoric. MAOIs were around roughly ten years before the TCAs
In a way, the marketing of depression and antidepressants was a brilliant, lucrative ploy, that in one way was like the Emperor's New Clothes, yet in another, brought in billions for the up-and-coming mega-pharmaceuticals.
The effect of this marketing revolution was that millions of heretofore effective prescriptions went out the window, because suddenly they were deemed too unsafe, addictive, controversial, or too euphoric, and for some reason in a Purtitan society we cannot have 'too euphoric' and 'too happy.'
As we progress, we want more safety and less responsibility for our own actions. In frenzied attempts to comply, mega-pharmaceuticals, teaming with advertising geniuses, have been able to make millions feel better through the power of suggestion, even though, with all that safety comes no extra efficacy.
Since about 1960, many effective medications have been banished to the realm of the fantastic, and patients are given very restricted choices in medicine. In fact, doctors are given almost no choices, and the resourceful pharmaceuticals know how to play the head-games, with their luncheons, their corporate gifts, trips and presentations, as well as good old-fashioned blackmail, pressure and questionable practices.
And it is since then that we are being told we can't have what we need, and we certainly can't have what we want. Unless of course it's Paxil, Vioxx, Viagra and Neurontin that we want, because in that case, doctors are more than willing to give you all the samples you want. But extra Percocet for your back because you can't walk to the kitchen without falling to your knees, well that's in the realm of wanting drugs that make you feel good, and if you can't stand to suffer that, then you must be a blight on society.
Based on just what the original poster said here: I still refuse to label you an addict because I think you simply want drugs. For all I know, you may be undermedicated for pain. Not farfetched these days.
Freedom from judgement should be an amendment to the Constitution.
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tstrunks
Stranger
Reged: 12/18/01
Posts: 1
Loc: Ohio
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Well, I must agree. Someone has finally written the truth about the development of drugs in the last 40 years.
But, something you may be missing is medical managementof your pain. The beauty of living these days is that you can get and recieve adequate pain relief. Many states have enacted laws allowing physicians to treat pain in a more agressive fashion. So....maybe a pain clinic is in the stars for you.
Another issue is the availability of these pills on the internet. How many of us have titrated our medicine upwards without supervision? Trust me...there are more than a few.
I've "gone on the wagon" and sure enough...the pain was there and real. Thank god for some compassionate docs who can at least see thier way throuhg to a Duragesic Patch or Oxycontin. We all want to live with the highest quality of life. For me that means taking enough medication so that I can keep working and live my life to the fullest!
So, I'm certainly tolerant, maybe addicted.....but I work and support my family. Believe me, it's better than going the disability route.
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dhc_60
Member
Reged: 01/31/04
Posts: 177
Loc: mo.
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well said guys.
the fact is opiates cause addiction physically. your body becomes dependant. your physcological dependance is the catch 22. does that make it morally wrong or evil to take them for the euphoric effect along w/ the pain reduction. well its my opinion they are one in the same. i mean the pain signal comes from the brain so they go hand in hand.
i guess im trying to say yes im addicted, dependant whichever term helps you live w/ the truth better does it really matter.
i have made peace w/ the fact that i am addicted to opiates for both physical and physcological needs.
good luck w/ your struggle.
try not to feel guilty for living pain free physically and mentaly.
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everything is going according to plan... its just not my plan.
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Greycie
Old Hand
Reged: 07/08/03
Posts: 466
Loc: Pacific NorthWest
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I adore this topic! I'm also very aware, as are most Drs., that every persons pain threshhold is very different. What one person feels as a twinge, another may feel as being the worst thing they've ever felt. Think of child birth- some women, no sweat- others, it's something they can't imagine doing again. Nobody can tell you what is "enough" pain to require medicating. I still stand by the fact that no one person can tell you whether you're addicted or not. Even my Dr. has said, they have no problem prescribing morphine to a 65 y/o man if it enables him to continue on the jackhammer each day- but for somebody like me, they don't want to give me anything "too" strong on account of my age and... well, what will they do when I'm 80 and the strong pain meds are no longer effective? Hmmm... good question, lol, but when I'm 80, I prolly won't be doing all of the things I often need pain meds to do now, lol.
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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
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Firefairy
Member
Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 147
Loc: Mississippi
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A couple of my OPINIONS on the subjects being discussed.
1. In my personal vocabulary: both an addict and someone who is dependent have the common factor of w/d if they stop taking the meds. The difference is in why they take them in the first place. An addict would be taking the medication to get "high" or have a "euphoric" feeling. Someone who takes the meds and all they do is relieve some or all of the pain would be dependent.
2. Pain thresholds can be vastly different in individuals and also can vary by type of pain. Someone who never has headaches but is used to gas pain may think they have a brain tumor if they all of sudden develop migraines. My grandmother never got sick, was healthy and pain free to the point she could not comprehend pain and illness in others. She would tell me and mother that those monthly cramps were "all in our head". Every month as a teenager I would miss 2 days of school, vomiting, running a fever of up to 100, spending hours with a heating pad. At 19 when I had my first baby I sat quietly nursing her. My grandmother was confused. "Doesnt it hurt?" "What do you mean?" I ask. She nursed her babies, and for anyone who has nursed, you know the very mild contractions you feel as you do this? It was like my very mildest cramps. My "pain free" grandmother described it as "feeling like my stomach was twisted, tied into a knot, and pulled out through my chest." A strange example, but just a point that we can never judge for another to what degree their pain manifests itself.

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DAdrian
Newbie
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 36
Loc: California
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I've had this discussion with my PCP more than once. He says that physical dependence is worlds away from addiction. An addict will continue using a substance even when they are aware that it will harm them or the way they live their life. So, I think the previous poster is right on - does the drug control you, or do you control the drug? If you are able to stay within the prescribed amount, then you are probably not an addict.
On the other hand, dependence has to do with body chemistry.
You can be physically dependent on high blood pressure medication, heart medication, or anti-depressants. Your brain gets used to having the substance and reacts, sometimes violently, if the substance is suddenly withdrawn. My doctor told me that a patient should never just "stop" taking something that has been prescribed for a long period of time. It essentially causes a trauma to the part of the brain or body where it works.
Just my .02.
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Devon :-)
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