 |
redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
|
|
Hi all? I am in need of a holiday, since my tolerance is in outer space. I am prescribed Roxicodone 15 mg qid. My drug use has gone out of control a little, and I have had to use the occasional spot of outside help (more roxi - also by prescription)
So now I fear for addiction. Most of the times I feel nothing from the pills, so I double up. Then when I do, sometimes I will nod and that will frighten me, making me think I am passing out or dying.
Although I am in real pain, and all the meds I receive are legitimate, I feel I am on the road to hell. If I run out early this month, I will be in deep trouble with my clinic. But I really need to do this for me, for better health, to funtion better, for my wonderful wife.
I don't know how I suddenly escalated, or why, but it really feels like the past 48 hours have been different. The pills feel less potent now, so I take more, and we know what that means.
Is an 'oxy holiday' similar to a hydro one? If so I can simply search this place for pointers on how to deal with one of those. If not, I'd appreciate some specific advice on dealing with Oxy.
For those few who have come to know me, and know of my aggressively pro-choice, pro-freedom, anti-government-meddling point-of-view (I may be flattering myself now, thinking anyone knows me here.. ), I would like to add that my opinions are not about to change. Doctors are still too unsympathetic, and the DEA are still thugs in my book.
Narcotics, in my opinion, should be more easily available, free from government scrutiny. Addiction is a personal issue, not a legal one. What I am saying is that I am not changing my tune in a time of personal crisis, which is temporary, by the way..
In a month I hope to be getting by with maybe half the abount of Roxi that I use today. With the help and of some of my online friends I should certainly be able to wean down considerably. I am not planning on getting off the pills altogether, not yet anyway.
Your help is so much appreciated,
Red.
|
jaydee
Stranger
Reged: 12/29/03
Posts: 19
|
|
Taper, taper, taper! An oxy wd is , oh, maybe 1000x worse than hydro! Don't won't to sound alarmist here, but if you have a real monkey on your back, be prepared for hell. Lay in any supply of hydro, ultram, etc. that you can. Valium helps also. If at all possible, cut your use back to the point that your meds will last to your next appt.
Good luck!!
Jaydee
|
voyager
Old Hand
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 418
Loc: United States Virgin Islands
|
|
You can do it. And with out misery!!!!!!!! But you will just have to slowly taper (WHICH REQUIRES DISCIPLINE AND SUPPORT). If you slowly taper off the drug you won't feel the dramatic effects and there fore won't suffer the intense withdrawls.
PM me if you have any questions or need support.
Good luck. It can be acomplished.
voyager (david)
|
gottadoit
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/21/03
Posts: 269
|
|
I have to agree with everyone here, you have to taper. Cold turkey from oxy will most definately make you feel like you are in hell. Hopefully you have other, less potent meds around that will help with the taper process. As voyager said, this can be done but you have to be disciplined and stick to the taper. I think it's great that you recognize that you are building a tolerance and want to bring it back down. Good luck, you can do it.
|
NJ_Hoss
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
|
|
Redhill,
At the dosage and duration youve implied, and in the absence of a proper medical evaluation, you have most probably become physically dependent. If you feel badly, dont. There is nothing inherently wrong or evil about having developed either a tolerance or physical dependence; it is simply an inherent characteristic of long-term opiate/opioid treatment.
Physical dependence is entirely different than addiction. Dependant individuals experience withdrawal when the body does not detect expected levels of a substance. Symptoms, severity, and duration depend upon dosage, duration, physiology, and other individual factors. Onset typically occurs within 12 to 24 hours of a missed expected dose. Prescribers who treat patients using long-term opioid therapies should be just as willing to taper dosages to mitigate withdrawal and have an ethical obligation to do so. It is also extremely difficult for even the strongest individual to self-taper without the informed support of his or her healthcare provider and at least one close friend or family member who can hold, dole out, and refuse access to more medication as the tapering continues.
Addiction is an entirely different animal that includes psychological and emotional dependence and becomes most apparent when a patient begins taking the drug for the drugs sake and demonstrates behavior consistent with seeking out a substance or prioritizing the drug above the condition. Addicts almost invariably develop physical dependence, but being dependent does not, in any way, ensure addiction. Numerous pain studies, including those by SAMHSA and AMA have determined that only a very small percentage of physically-dependent legitimate pain patients become addicted despite long-term high-dose opioid use. Recreational use is an entirely different circumstance for another discussion.
To gain some perspective, your current dosage is a daily Oxycodone dose of 60mg which, from your post, may be supplemented to as much as 100mg. OxyContin delivers a 12-hour sustained dose of Oxycodone, and its common dosage forms are 10, 20, 40, and 80mg prescribed either BID or TID. It was once available in a single 160mg tablet, but was discontinued due to its high diversion and theft rate. With common daily doses that range from 20mg to 240mg, you are nowhere near the common extreme. Enlightened pain managers avoid imposing dosage ceilings and focus on sufficient dosing, provided it isnt otherwise dangerous.
At a certain point, most prescribers will typically reevaluate the current therapy to consider alternate treatment methods or lower and less frequent doses of stronger medication. Oxycodone is pretty far up the strength scale, and the real alternatives are Morphine, Hydromorphone, Methadone, or Fentanyl-based products. Even with stronger medications, effective pain managers focus on pain control over dosage limits, which can theoretically expand infinitely with tolerance. This may be a good option for you, as it has the additional benefit of being proactive about your care, and subjecting yourself to less of the anxiety that comes with knowing you will eventually be in pain or withdrawal. In and of itself, that piece of mind can be priceless.
If you do choose to self-withdraw with the goal of lowering your tolerance, you should do so with open eyes. First, it isnt pleasant, and you are likely to feel miserable, like you have a terrible case of the flu, but worse. You also wont have the euphoric opiate effect to offset your discomfort. Leg cramps and involuntary kicking, spasms, insomnia, diarrhea, cold sweats, chills, fever, and nausea are de rigueur. Even worse, a period of notable depression is very common and doing so alone, without the help of a medical professional or, at the very least, a trusted friend to offer support encouragement, and objective insight can make it infinitely more difficult. Second, a single day, or even a week may not be enough to lower your tolerance level. If your pain is valid, and treatment is appropriate, there should be no reason to do so, as you are already likely physically dependent; but addiction is an issue to address when you no longer have a valid need for pain medication. You havent indicated that this is the case.
Nevertheless, whether withdrawing intentionally or in a pinch, you are virtually powerless except to treat the symptoms as they occur. OTC pain relievers and Imodium can relieve some of the fever, aches, and diarrhea. (Do not use Lomotil (Lonox) as its active ingredient is actually narcotic) A prescribed sedative like Valium or Xanax, carefully taken to ensure that it does not become dangerously potent with the residual opiates, can take some of the edge off the anxiety and help you sleep. Low, titrated doses of a blood pressure medication, Catapres (Clonidine) can provide tremendous help by lowering your then-elevated blood pressure and easing the severity of many of the unpleasant side-effects. It can be a Godsend, but you must take it carefully as the ad hoc combination of medications can be dangerous to a body in distress and the resulting physiological roller coaster can be dangerous. Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) is a wonderfully benign antihistamine and the active ingredient in most OTC sleep aids. It interacts with very little, but caution is still wise. Vitamins, clear fluids, Gatorade or Pedialyte, and any sort of comfort food, distracting movies, or ANYTHING that has ever made you feel better at one time or another sure couldnt hoyt!
Each persons DNA is different and although most would share similar withdrawal experiences, its manifestation and severity will vary. For some its unbearable; for others, its not so bad. All the time, bear in mind that if you are solely coping with physical dependence, you have done nothing wrong, and are no different than a cigarette smoker or coffee drinker changing their routine. Unless your doctor would intentionally cut you off from your necessary pain medications, I would absolutely try to enlist his or her support. As they help chemotherapy patients cope with the pain of their treatment, so should they help you; and many, many will. If one refuses, ask another. I would work my way through the phone book, not discounting any relevant specialist, including GPs. You may be surprised at who is ready to help you without making an immediate addiction assumption and immediately guiding you toward a treatment facility. If you find resistance, thank them for their time and move on. Take a positive role in your own health care.
My point is that the incorrect assumption that dependence means addiction is terrible, and there should be no need for you to experience painful or potentially dangerous abrupt withdrawal. For your own sake, find a doctor who will work with you to find an effective therapy that is right for you. Even if you dont have the resources, being open and honest is likely to yield more positive responses from those willing to help than you may have ever imagined. If withdrawal ultimately proves to be the answer, doing so with a doctors support can make all the difference in the world and even enable you to function during the process. It is NOT generally appropriate for doctors to treat addiction by continuing to prescribe for the sake of supporting a habit. However, it is equally inappropriate for them to withhold treatment for physical dependence which is as different from addiction as a mole is to melanoma.
Please forgive the length of my response, one and all, and for everything you may have already known. I hope it has provided you with at least one new option to consider that may be safer, more effective, or less painful. I also hope it might help others facing similar decisions or circumstances, regardless of reason, make a better informed choice.
Best of luck and health.
|
prettyday
Threadhead
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 978
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
|
|
I think NJ Hoss gave you the best reply out there. My only other thought is to do a search on Google for the "thomas recipe", supposedly much better than going alone.
--------------------
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
|
prettyday
Threadhead
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 978
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
|
|
You are doing the right thing. I MUST get off this board and get ready for work; I am in your shoes right now; I think it starts with pain flares (med increases) and we are so sick of suffering thru them and we have the stuff to hand, so... what animal in a test situation would not react the same way. If they test poor rats cats and beagles because they react as we do in pain, why should our pain muffle its vibrations because we have opposable thumbs.
The answer would be to knock out the person during the pain flare; if that was not possible, then allow more meds for that period, and immediate Clondine and temporary anti-anxiety meds to get back down. Immediate response would save us all so much time money and guilt, that last is completely unnwarranted.
God Bless You. 
--------------------
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Mahatma Gandhi
|
voyager
Old Hand
Reged: 04/17/03
Posts: 418
Loc: United States Virgin Islands
|
|
NJ Hoss,
I wanted to publicly acknowledge your inciteful analysis of dependence versus addiction. Very relevant information that unfortunately does not exist among many health care providers in the world today. 
Voyager (david)
|
potatoboy99
Permanent Fixture

Reged: 02/04/03
Posts: 1211
Loc: Deep North (East)
|
|
Quote:
Addiction is an entirely different animal that includes psychological and emotional dependence and becomes most apparent when a patient begins taking the drug for the drugs sake and demonstrates behavior consistent with seeking out a substance or prioritizing the drug above the condition. Addicts almost invariably develop physical dependence, but being dependent does not, in any way, ensure addiction.
Thank you NJ Hoss, you make this very confusing territory seem easy to navigate. This is more than a matter of simple definitions; it gets to the heart of how we (as self-medicating individuals) view ourselves and our places in society. We are NOT, by and large, drug addicts, although many of us are made to feel that we are, by doctors, pharmacists, friends and colleagues, and of course the good old DEA.
Good luck, Redhill, with your Oxy holiday. Recognizing that there is a problem is the most important step in dealing with it, IMO.
|
NJ_Hoss
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
|
|
I appreciate the kind words from all, both posted publicly and sent privately, and simply hope what I wrote is helpful.
|
redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
|
|
WOW 
I am just blown away by the sympathy, the good advice and the fact that there are so many people out there willing to help another person.
Voyager (David) - Thanks very much for the offer to talk, I might actually take you up on it one of these days!
NJ Hoss - thank you for that message. I mean, you have some great suggestions which I will follow, but it's not just that. The fact that you took what must have been an hour to write to (amongst others) a person that you've never met, well, it just shows me that Internet or real-life, this world is still full of people that look out for each other. Or let me put it more simply: thanks very much, I appreciate it.
If I've not mentioned anyone by name that I should have, I'm not being rude, I just happen to be replying to the last message in the thread. I appreciate all the answers, and all the help. Maybe some day I can give back.
As for my tapering down. That's what the main goal is. I've finished my meds up before, because sometimes the pain came back too soon, or I confused the warm fuzzies with pain relief. (it's surprisingly common among us, right?) So now, even though I should take four 15 mg tabs over the day, I could take all four at once and not feel too out of it.
I intend to a) get back to a schedule and take the tabs for pain only and b) get my tolerance down to where I can take one pill and get relief.
Luckily, I do have 70 15's left, as well as 50 norco from a previous script. I am not throwing anything away btw, but with help I have cut my pill-doses in half over the past two days.
I have also given the following a lot of thought, and I have read up on the pluses and minuses on this very board. I might have the option of being switched to methadone at the pain next visit. The way I see it, methadone is a very effective pain killer that keeps withdrawal at bay with a single daily dose.
I am not going to be looking for a high (never did that, just like so many opiate users, I tried to get 'normal' which I realise is a real pathology, meaning I am not trying to rationalise heavy drug use), but without the craving and being out of pain, well, that will help me enough while I find a real purpose in life to help me fill the void that drugs otherwise would.
I hope my convoluted sentences still make sense - LOL. Please do keep the comments coming, I am sure there's some food for thought in the methadone option I have at my disposal. If you think it's an interesting topic, let me know and I will start a fresh thread on it.
Cheers,
Red
|
redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
|
|
Quote:
If your pain is valid, and treatment is appropriate, there should be no reason to do so, as you are already likely physically dependent; but addiction is an issue to address when you no longer have a valid need for pain medication. You havent indicated that this is the case.
There's my slip up.. I was approaching this solely from an addiction point-of-view, which, admittedly, is high on my list of worries.
And then, this morning, the pain in my back told me I forgot to dose up, and, sad to say, I obeyed.
But you're right. As long as pain is still too much an issue, the dependence is not something I should worry about first. I did, for the past two days, successfully cut my dose by 25 per cent. Gives me some hope.
Red
|
redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
|
|
edit to my first post:
it is likely now that, funny as it sounds, my current prescription IS less potent than usual. I seem to have been sold a batch of powdery, dessicated tablets that feel less effective. But what can one do? There is no recourse with the pharmacy, save for the obvious; I shan't be using this particular chemist for dispensing my meds in future. There's a Target just up the road from me, anyway.
|
kewlone4u
Enthusiast

Reged: 03/26/02
Posts: 245
Loc: Tennessee
|
|
Ya, those roxicodones if carried around in your pocket will dissentigrate, they are very fragile.Also they are subject to humidity which will cause them to get very soft.Make sure to keep them in a dry and preferably dark place.Use cotton to keep them from rattling around and only carry what you need with you for the day, keep last months bottle to carry a days supply.Just a few tips from someone who's been there and crushed many by accident by using a small pocket sized pill holder. Taper and hang on till next month,do NOT run out!! You may have to take your days off work as the rough days without being able to get much done, break them in half and stave off the pain just enough to get by without going into WD. I keep time released Contugesic aka DHC as a back-up so I can sleep when this happens.They are time released, CHEAP, and will do the trick in these situations.Good luck, and tell your PM doc that you feel like your pain level has slowly increased possibly due to being on the same dosage for a while and may need to titrate upwards for sufficient relief. I don't know how tight your PM doc is, but if you've been on the same dose for quite some time, he should understand the tolerance issue. Take care, KO
--------------------
C' ya---KO
|
kewlone4u
Enthusiast

Reged: 03/26/02
Posts: 245
Loc: Tennessee
|
|
Sorry Redhill, I didn't read the whole thread, and didn't realize you want to titrate downwards. Good luck, KO
--------------------
C' ya---KO
|
sjm
Stranger
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 18
|
|
I went through this same condition two years ago, I was using oxycontin and was similarly worried when my dosage reached 200mg/day. I decided to try cold turkey with the aid of immodium, aspirin, soup, Pepsi, oranges, vitamins, and hot showers. The first three days were wretched, I did not sleep for longer than 30 minutes at a time and took 5-6 HOT-HOT showers per night. My legs ached, and worse, the main reason for taking the meds, my back, was extremely painful, but I was determined. The soup helped, and I gradually added crackers and tea with the Pepsi, and took up to 12 immodium per day. Although it surely sounds disgusting, the days when I was constipated from the oxycontin seemed to explode beneath me, and I needed Desitin for a very painful backside. Although I looked horrible and my back ached, by day three, I was proud of what I was doing, and added the vitamins and oranges, which caused more diarrhea, etc.
Over days 4-7, I gradually added more and more food, and went to the gym for workouts, sunlamps (yes, eventually I wanted to at least look okay), and long saunas. Believe it or not, no doubt due to God's grace, my back pain began to subside. The sauna and hot showers helped a lot. I can remember one morning, feeling like hammered sh**, I went to the gym and couldn't even force myself to pedal the bike to warmup. Instead, I went to the sauna for 30 minutes, and, somehow, my aching bones were warmed to their very core and I was able to face the world again. My first real meal was a large breakfast on day 5. Eggs, bacon, pork roll, toast with jelly - lots of it, never tasted so good. I drank an entire pot of coffee along with enough orange juice to turn me that color permanently. But, ohh, it tasted soo good. I was free of the monkey and on the road to normalcy.
I'm writing this simply to let you know that it is possible to do without tapering. NJ Hoss has some great medical advice, and in the time since then, I have used several tapering methods for my "holidays", some simply replaced oxy with hydro or phenothiazines. The best, however, have been when I've had the guts and the time to go without any meds. The side benefit to these efforts was a lower tolerance in a much shorter period of time than by using a tapering method. Equally important for me was that I felt freed from the trap of pain-pain killer-increased tolerance and its corresponding state of depression and non-functioning. Good luck on your choice.
|
redhill
Banned. Flames, offending others
Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 278
Loc: Hell on Earth, for now
|
|
It's been a few days now and I have to say it's looking good. For a few days I went down to my regular dose (as prescribed rather than 'as I need them'), then yesterday and today two pills and then one pill, respectively.
Things to do, lots of coffee (quite often the beverage of choice for recovering addicts, it seems), some exercise, and movies! I need to do this for five more days, by which time I will have enough pills left to go back to finishing out the prescription as prescribed.
I've survived so far, and I am not permanently out of meds, i.e I have a half-full bottle of Roxi's to look forward to next week. Not only that, but with a lowered tolerance, it will be easy to take no more than prescribed.
To be fair, the reason I started upping is that my doc had no intention of upping my dose for pain. He set a certain dosage, and told me he would go no higher. He seemed bound by a set number, rather than let my pain levels dictate the dose. I asked him to prescribe me an average of 4.5 tabs daily, when I felt the need for it, and when I went over, my average worked out to exactly half a tab too many taken daily.
I'm doing good, on just one pill a day. It's really hard on my back, since I still am in a lot of pain, but having never gone through a full-blown withdrawal, I would like to avoid it if I can.
You've all been very supportive, and I may have been a bit over the top in the first post. This board is gold - thanks again.
|
sjm
Stranger
Reged: 11/11/03
Posts: 18
|
|
Well, it's been a few days since I last heard from you - just wondering if your rapid taper is proceeding without you hearing from that nagging back? It's probably time for you to have that monster meal, a beggar's banquet, if you like, to stoke the furnaces for the next few steps. I'm really glad that you gave us an update two days ago, and that you're making excellent progress. We're all there with you.
|
phinny
Enthusiast

Reged: 04/09/02
Posts: 247
Loc: Canada
|
|
Short answer to your post - I will not get into my Rx history at the risk of my post being punted. I will say that nothing, with the exception of Methadone, comes close to an oxy wd. You have lots of great info from previous posts. Do not try an extreme taper or outright abstinance without a plan or chemical assistance. It is hell.
--------------------
Sherman, set the way-back machine to 1970.
|
night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
|
|
Maybe someone could clarify this for me as I am slightly confused as to how oxy withdrawal would be worse than hydro or even morphine withdrawal. They are all relatively short-acting narcotics. After all, unless we are talking PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES with withdrawal (which would then have little to do with the actual drug and more to do with the individual and behavioral concerns) the clinical symptoms would be about the same for the above drugs.
Methadone is a long-acting narcotic and withdrawal from this drug has caused death (rarely) and the time it takes to get over the physical symptoms can take more than a month from the last use.
Therefore (as someone who has withdrawn from ALL of the above at some point in my life,) I can say without hesitation that oxy withdrawal wasn't any worse than that from MSContin or hydrocodone. But methadone withdrawal was hell on earth comparatively.
If someone can offer scientific evidence why there would be any worse issue between oxy and hydro, I'd be interested to see it.
--------------------
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
|
tone
Veteran
Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 558
Loc: Chicago
|
|
Here is a diagram of the chemical strcture of hydrocodone:
http://opioids.com/hydrocodone/structure.html
Here is a diagram of the chemical strcture of oxycodone:
http://opioids.com/oxycodone/structure.html
a single atom difference. ive taken both before. i can barely tell the difference between the two.
|
night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
|
|
TONE-
are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? Or neither?
Can't tell from your post, but the info you posted supports my opinion.
--------------------
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
|
tone
Veteran
Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 558
Loc: Chicago
|
|
I agree with you, hydro and oxy are the same, and methodone which is totally different plus long half life is very prolonged from what i hear.
sometimes a single atom difference in one group of a compound does make a big difference, but in the case of hydro and oxy it doesnt really. they are practically the same in effect and withdrawl. oxycodone might be ever so slightly stronger.
hydrocodone and oxycodone are semi synthetic analogs to codeine. the latter being only slightly stronger if anything.
hydromorphone and oxymorphone are their counterparts, only they are semi synthetics of morphine rather than codeine.
oxymorphone, therefore, may be the best morphine/codeine structured opioid there is.. based on looking at structure alone. funny enough, it isnt even available as an oral pill that i know of.
hydromorphone is the pill dilaudid. its not prescribed as often as hydrocodone and oxycodone.
i have no experience with taking either.
|
phinny
Enthusiast

Reged: 04/09/02
Posts: 247
Loc: Canada
|
|
Hydro is a short acting narcotic. Oxycontin is a CR medication - good for up to 12 hrs for some - not me. Some formulations of oxycodone are short acting, for example, percodan/percocet. I think that's where some of the confusion comes from. "Oxy" is a term used to identify both formulations. As far as the symptoms of withdrawal from Oxycontin, I can't explain why they are so intense, but they are, and the fact that it is controlled release may have something to do with it, but after talking with many chronic pain patients and others who have used Oxy for years, they all seem to say the same thing - it is in a league of its own, disregarding 'done of course. I think methadone is better for chronic pain than oxy, ime. All I can say that kicking hydro was a picnic compared to Oxy - same general symptoms, but the wd never seemed to go away - the best I could hope for was a periodic decrease in tolerance to my Oxys. Hope that helps. PS - Thanks for the PM nightshade. Good luck.
--------------------
Sherman, set the way-back machine to 1970.
|
night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
|
|
OxyContin is continuous release, but the oxycodone in it is the same exact oxycodone in Percocet and the IR forms. Whether the formulary is slow-release or not has NO EFFECT on how the active ingredient is metabolized by the body.
So many people erroneously believe that the oxycodone in OxyContin is long-acting. It just isn't true. Oxycodone has a relatively short half-life--no matter what formulary it is in. Therefore, it is no more or no less difficult to withdraw from than Percocet or Vicodin, etc., unless you are referring to PSYCHOLOGICAL withdrawal (which I am not discounting by any means, but that's a completely different issue altogether.)
--------------------
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
|
ejrob
Stranger
Reged: 01/26/04
Posts: 3
|
|
You ight try large doses of loperamide, easily ontained at Wal-mart. Take a large doses like 18 - 24 at a time then titrate down. You might get a little comstipated, but will feel no ill effects. I've neen doing it 7 years and it'sd worked great. No chills, sweats, etc., etc.
|
|
|
 |