brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Hi all, I wanted to share my experience, for what it is worth, since I have been helped/educated so much by reading this board.
I began a planned hydro holiday Friday morning with the help of temgesic and clonidine.( obtained through click, via the special request category at the new rate of $93.00 per 50...for those who have been looking)
I may have done something wrong? I took my last hydro at around 9 pm. Thursday night.
Friday at about 7:30 am took I 2 tems under the tongue and 1 clonidine. (both from Click).
I don't remember much of Friday, other than struggling through the day to stay awake. No pain, headache or sniffles or the normal withdrawal, just EXTREME lethargy. The tiredness was to the point that I 'trapped' my boys (almost 1 and almost 3)in the living room with me (thank goodness for Noggin), via gates and locked doors; out of fear that I would doze off. I think I was so out of it, that it never dawned on me to try another 1 or 2 tems(which probably would have helped, although I had a great fear of getting off the hydro and then w/d from the Temgesic). Around noon took another tem and another around 4pm. This seemed to be the reccomended dosage for 'holidays'. I slept on and off most of the day, did NOTHING other than keep the boys safe, fed and cared for until Daddy got home.
Saturday was a little better, but I still was pretty out of it until around 5 or 6 pm. Then the fog started lifting. By that point I had increased the Tems to 1-2 every 3-5 hours.
Sat night, I decided I could not afford to 'lose' aother day to the lethargy, so I put the Tems and a couple hydros in my night table drawer with the intention of taking the Tems if I felt I coud get out of bed in the am, or the hydro if I felt it would be another wasted day.
Felt better Sunday so I took the Tems in the am and throughout the day. (again 1-2 every 3-5 hours depending on how I felt, also took 1/2 clonidine a couple times).
By Sunday night I felt pretty 'normal'. A little tired, but not as foggy and did some house cleaning, etc.
Well I had taken the hydro out of the drawer for fear of my 3 YO finding them, slipped them in my pocket, with the intention of putting them away.
Around 6 pm Sunday night I took the hydro that was in my pocket. I did this competely w/o meaning to!
I had intended to take a dose of the Temgesic (the last of the evening), and was just preoccupied. I did not even realize what I had done until about 10 minutes later!
My observation/warning here....within an hour I felt withdrawals. It wasn't just the lethargy or fogginess I felt the first 2 days, niether was it as bad withdrawal as I have felt. Still I dont understand how taking the hydro could have brought on withdrawals, but I am assuming it has something to do with the temgesic. I had been warned by a fellow DB'er to wait at least 12-24 hours after the last Tem to take any hydro (although I planned to wait as long as my pain would allow). I took 2 more Tems in hopes of stopping the w/d about an hour later and it DID work.
Sorry this got so long...just wanted to share this, in case this is a normal reaction, maybe it can help someone else avoid my error.
Also a question...to those that have gotten this far..sorry so long.
I wonder, taking the hydro as I did...will that reverse the holiday I was attempting and put me back to day one?? I have not felt too bad today, but have not tried going w/o the Temgesic to find out. I don't think I took enough Temgesic the first couple of days, for fear that I would feel the withdrawal from them.
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Cheers,
B~
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bones392
Enthusiast

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 228
Loc: USA
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I justed wanted to say good luck with your holiday and stick with it! I am on one right now (started quickly tapering last Monday). I didn't have enough hydro left to taper down properly so I did it quickly and then switched to temgesic. I wouldn't worry about w/d's from the temgesic unless you are abusing it. I have used it for a holiday before and no w/d's from it. In fact, with it I didn't have much of the hydro w/d symptoms at all. Unfortunately this time I only had a handfull of them to help taper so as of this past friday I had nothing. No temgesic, no hydro, ultram, NOTHING. Friday night was tough but I woke up Saturday getting better and even better on Sunday. I forced myself to eat and took 800 mgs of motrin to help with the cramping in my legs (my tolerance was HIGH, big habit). Now here it is Monday and I have not felt this good in the longest time. Mentally I still want hydro, but I can deal with that by keeping busy. I know I will experience the pain that made my hydro use nec. as it is a permanent injury (very severe and violent, won't get into it unless you want to hear it) but I feel so energetic now that I got past the w/d that I'm happy again. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with you and give you some hope that it really does actually get better. I read the withdrawl and holiday posts here and sometimes I know that people get scared for the horror stories. It can be done and I am the type of person with very limited willpower...and even I did it! So stick with it and good luck, good health to you!
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curious
Member
Reged: 03/14/03
Posts: 186
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Not trying to be nosy but am trying to learn. How many hydros did you normally take a day and how quickly did you taper ie. your skedule each day from start to Fri.? Also, how long were on them? Months, years? I know everyone is different but you went cold turkey almost and it sounds like it was pretty smooth going except for the first night and you even slept! I'm very happy for you, good luck in continuing to stay off as long as you can/want or need or forever if that's you can! I hope you don't mind my questions, as I said I'm trying to learn, have taken a few holidays myself and was not that easy but again everyone is different. My hardest part is keeping busy cause I don't want/feel like doing anything and can't seem to concentrate on anything. Also experience depression which is very difficult for me to handle. That's my experience in the past - cold turkey. By the way, does anyone know how the clonidine works-isn't that a blood pressure med? Thanks for any response.
Curious
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curious
Member
Reged: 03/14/03
Posts: 186
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By the way Brenda, good luck to you as well, I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. 
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bones392
Enthusiast

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 228
Loc: USA
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I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that I used a generic otc sleep aid to sleep at night. I also took motrin at night sometimes because my legs cramped very badly. That was the worst part for me. I also used immodium for the first few days for the desired effect. lol. I forgot to mention those. I know this is hard to believe to so sickenly true...I was up to over 120 mgs of hydro a day. Huge tolerance. I only had 20 10/325's to taper with along with 15 temgesics (wish I had more, last time I got away with no w/d's at all with temgesic) I sponsered a St. Patrick's day event Saturday night and HAD to attend so I was dreading it. Felt tired, hard to stand up for long periods of time but still knew I could and had to show up. I didn't get the luxury of sleeping all day Saturday or Sunday for that matter. Hope this helps if not, I am on and off again so I should be able to respond
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curious
Member
Reged: 03/14/03
Posts: 186
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Wow, that's great it went so smoothly for you. I hope everything continues to go as well. One other question: How long have you been taking hydro? Month, years? Sorry for the interogation. Good luck for the coming days, weeks, months. Again, I hope it continues to go well for you. Thanks.
Curious 
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bones392
Enthusiast

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 228
Loc: USA
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I have been using hydro off and on since Feb of 2002, and then after a sophisticated reconstruction surgery in August of 2003. From August of 2003 up until my recent holiday my hydro use had been daily except for a 2 week holiday I took in November 2003.
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bones392
Enthusiast

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 228
Loc: USA
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forgot to say thanks for the encouragement...THANKS!
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tone
Veteran
Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 554
Loc: Chicago
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Quote:
I wouldn't worry about w/d's from the temgesic unless you are abusing it. I have used it for a holiday before and no w/d's from it.
what does that mean? "unless you are abusing it" what exactly do you mean by 'abusing' it?
are you talking about higher doses beyond a certain level lead to a withdrawl from temgesic?
thanks
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snakey
Member
Reged: 05/20/03
Posts: 105
Loc: cally
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congrats bones,and yes I think it is the horror stories that stop people from starting their holidays,it is posts like yours that give people the encouragement to start,very nice..snakey
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bones392
Enthusiast

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 228
Loc: USA
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Tone, I hope I didn't offend you with that temgesic thing. It wasn't my intention. What I was trying to say was if you keep your dosages low and spaced out enough that will not only make it last, but help you to ween off of the mental need to take the pill. Taking more than nec. may lead to overuse or abuse of that medication. I type fast and quick so sometimes I don't explain myself. Sorry.
Also,
Thanks for the encouragement Snakey!
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Quote:
Tone, I hope I didn't offend you with that temgesic thing. It wasn't my intention. What I was trying to say was if you keep your dosages low and spaced out enough that will not only make it last, but help you to ween off of the mental need to take the pill. Taking more than nec. may lead to overuse or abuse of that medication. I type fast and quick so sometimes I don't explain myself. Sorry.
Also,
Thanks for the encouragement Snakey!
I think your original advice, not to overuse the temgesic, is why I felt so bad for the first about 40 hours of holiday. I think I was so afraid to use too much I was not using enough.
Also was fearful that I would run out of that, and, beings that I still have hydro, I KNOW if I ran out of temgesic before the W/D were gone I would be back on the hydro.
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Cheers,
B~
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Bonkers46
Journeyman
Reged: 10/24/02
Posts: 88
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I took a 6 month holiday and would like to do it again. A doctor gave me Catapress(sp?) and Valium to help with any withdrawal and it worked great. Catapress is for blood pressure and it was a patch. Wish I could find it through an OP. If anyone has any suggestions or would like to PM me on where to get the Temegisic and/or Clonodin that would be great. I read the 1st post but it didn't register on where to find it.
Thanks in advance,
Bonkers46
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Quote:
I took a 6 month holiday and would like to do it again. A doctor gave me Catapress(sp?) and Valium to help with any withdrawal and it worked great. Catapress is for blood pressure and it was a patch. Wish I could find it through an OP. If anyone has any suggestions or would like to PM me on where to get the Temegisic and/or Clonodin that would be great. I read the 1st post but it didn't register on where to find it.
Thanks in advance,
Bonkers46
I recieved both Catapress and Temgesic from Clickdrugstore.com.
The clonidine, was called Catapress I am pretty sure.
I think they are out of the temgesic right now. My order arrived Thursday from them. 24-7 also carries temgesic.
Also, many people are reccomending click above 24-7 due to prices, but Click has increased the price. I saw reports of $50, but I paid $93 for 50 .2 mcg at Click and 24-7 I think is $109.(but is faster with shipping).
Hope this helps.
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Cheers,
B~
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Simp
Stranger
Reged: 12/02/03
Posts: 5
Loc: Okla
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Bones, or anyone for that matter. One question, when using Temgesic to get through the WD's do you start on it while still tapering on the Hydro or do you wait until you're totally out and then switch to the Tem? Any input would be deeply appreciated!
Thanks,
Simp
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1241
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
...Still I dont understand how taking the hydro could have brought on withdrawals, but I am assuming it has something to do with the temgesic.
I don't see how taking one hydrocodone tab when you're on a steady low dose of buprenorphine could cause WDs (abstinence syndrome). It just doesn't make any sense because that low Temgesic dose is probably putting you on the edge of WDs anyway, and taking the hydro would chase them away, not bring them on.
My guess is that it was just a coincidence, not a causal relationship. Either that ... or it was a reverse placebo effect caused by reading the product insert and a few posts here and there from people who say that buprenorphine put them into withdrawals. The mu-antagonist effects of buprenorphine only manifest at high doses, and anyway, your reporting that taking some more Temgesic relieved the "hydro caused" WDs contradicts that theory.
Trampy
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Your mileage may vary ...
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mermaid72000
Member
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 125
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when i tapered of hydro and got towards the end and still had hydro i felt like i was in wd and i am thinking i just took a hydro what is happening? i think in my case my best friend was leaving me quickly and my mind screwed me up on that one. not saying that happened to you but i think i set up myself to wd before i even did if that makes sense!!
carol
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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[quote I don't see how taking one hydrocodone tab when you're on a steady low dose of buprenorphine could cause WDs (abstinence syndrome). It just doesn't make any sense because that low Temgesic dose is probably putting you on the edge of WDs anyway, and taking the hydro would chase them away, not bring them on.
My guess is that it was just a coincidence, not a causal relationship. Either that ... or it was a reverse placebo effect caused by reading the product insert and a few posts here and there from people who say that buprenorphine put them into withdrawals. The mu-antagonist effects of buprenorphine only manifest at high doses, and anyway, your reporting that taking some more Temgesic relieved the "hydro caused" WDs contradicts that theory.
Trampy
You are likely right.
The tems that I got from Click did not come with any insert or info.
I also recieved an order from 24-7, as I never had confirmation from click that the bup's had shipped, and after reading here that many were told they were out, I just assumed they were out. The tems from 24-7 did come with an insert. If I am reading it correctly, you can take other opiods with the temgesic.
Another DB'er who has given me some gret advice (where are you???), but has been MIA, advised me that the hydro would have little if any effect, while taking temgesic and that did seem to be the case.
At any rate, I am off holiday...after a severe migraine...and am going to try and taper.
I am going to have some urine tests in a couple weeks and I am kind of at a battle of do I just bring my script and take the risk of going through possible hassles with them, or do I just taper off and not have any hydro in my system??
I am inclined to just taper off, or use the temgesic and just not worry about them questioning my prescription.
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Cheers,
B~
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dollhog
Enthusiast
Reged: 07/06/02
Posts: 289
Loc: the deep deep south
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Hi,
I would love to take a hydro holiday and definitely want to taper. I was wondering (maybe a stupid question) if codeine and then temgesic would help? Ya know, slowly go down on opiate potency since codeine is not as strong as hydro.
Just curious. Thanks for any input. 
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potatoboy99
Permanent Fixture

Reged: 02/04/03
Posts: 1211
Loc: Deep North (East)
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Quote:
My observation/warning here....within an hour I felt withdrawals. It wasn't just the lethargy or fogginess I felt the first 2 days, niether was it as bad withdrawal as I have felt. Still I dont understand how taking the hydro could have brought on withdrawals, but I am assuming it has something to do with the temgesic.
That is strange.....
You were not confusing temgesic with sublingual buprenorphine by any chance? There is a type of bupe called (I think) suboxone, which is buprenorphine combined with naltraxone. Naltraxone is both an opiate blocker (supresses effects of opioids), as well as being known for precipitating withdrawl. In otherwords, if you took suboxone and had hydro in your system, you might find yourself in sudden withdrawl. (This is according to the product insert).
I think you said you got your meds from Click, and I know they have never sent me anything but loose pills in zip loc baggies, so I'm never 100% certain which med is which. I have never ordered Temgesic from them though.
Anyway this is just an idea. I can't think of any other reason you went into sudden withdrawl.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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Just for clarification, I am NOT responding to Potatoboy's post directly, just replied to the last post in line.
I think it bears consideration that Clonidine is HIGHLY overused by most people. I highly doubt most of the people who are using it here have substantially elevated blood pressure enough to justify it.
Hence, using ANY blood pressure medication by people with NORMAL blood pressure would cause significant lowering of the blood pressure and the very lethargy the original poster complained of.
I know that clonidine is often recommended for withdrawal, but I don't see any plausible reason why this medication would miraculously reduced withdrawal symptoms. It is now and has always been a medication used for hypertension.
I have used clonidine during withdrawal (specifically for highly elevated blood pressure) and did not notice ANY benefit from the drug other than reduction in my blood pressure--and it took substantial amounts to even bring that down to a normal level.
I think we often lose perspective when in withdrawal and are anxious for ANY miracle cure to get through those dark days. Please be VERY cautious of clonidine as overdose on that medication will lead to death.
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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Trampy
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 04/02/02
Posts: 1241
Loc: Southwest U.S.
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Quote:
I think we often lose perspective when in withdrawal and are anxious for ANY miracle cure to get through those dark days. Please be VERY cautious of clonidine as overdose on that medication will lead to death.
It can also lead to irreversible eye damage.
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Your mileage may vary ...
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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[quote
I think you said you got your meds from Click, and I know they have never sent me anything but loose pills in zip loc baggies, so I'm never 100% certain which med is which. I have never ordered Temgesic from them though.
Anyway this is just an idea. I can't think of any other reason you went into sudden withdrawl.
I maybe should have been clearer, it was not full blown withdrawal that I have felt when I went cold turkey. But a mild, just kinda yucky, a little flushed, and a little leg achy feeling. So it may have not even been the hydro, and also it could very well have been BP. I do notice that I get flushed if my BP is up, although I don't normally have high BP, like everyone I am sure, environment, moods, etc can cause my BP to raise.
As for the buprenorphine from Click. It did come in original blister packs with expiration date, all sealed with name and dosage clearly on it. But there was no package insert.
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Cheers,
B~
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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Quote:
So it may have not even been the hydro, and also it could very well have been BP. I do notice that I get flushed if my BP is up, although I don't normally have high BP, like everyone I am sure, environment, moods, etc can cause my BP to raise.
Do you normally suffer from hypertension? How are you measuring your blood pressure? "Flushing" can be caused by anything and is not necessarily an indication of high blood pressure.
My unmedicated hypertension is 170-190/100-110. My medicated blood pressure ranges anywhere from 100-140/75-95. Blood pressure DOES fluctuate during the day for everyone. And it can give misleading results to use the home cuff randomly throughout the day. Hypertension needs to be diagnosed AND treated by a physician.
It is just one of those things that is FOOLISH to self-medicate for. It is also dangerous. If you DO decide to risk it during withdrawal or any other time, PLEASE keep those medications appropriately out of the reach of children.
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Quote:
Do you normally suffer from hypertension? How are you measuring your blood pressure? "Flushing" can be caused by anything and is not necessarily an indication of high blood pressure.
My unmedicated hypertension is 170-190/100-110. My medicated blood pressure ranges anywhere from 100-140/75-95. Blood pressure DOES fluctuate during the day for everyone. And it can give misleading results to use the home cuff randomly throughout the day. Hypertension needs to be diagnosed AND treated by a physician.
It is just one of those things that is FOOLISH to self-medicate for. It is also dangerous. If you DO decide to risk it during withdrawal or any other time, PLEASE keep those medications appropriately out of the reach of children.
Perhaps I was not clear, or you misunderstood me. Maybe I am misunderstanding you.
What I was trying to state is that I DO NOT have hypertension. I couldn't think of the word...what I stated was that 'my blood pressure is not normally high', but like many people, circumstances, chemical and/or environmental variables can cause blood pressure to rise. I'm not saying dangerously so, but as you stated, BP fluctuates throughout the day, and many events, stress, medicines, possibly even sex can raise or lower BP. 
I did had high blood pressure when I was pregnant. I do know that if my blood pressure rises, I often get flushed and my face gets red or ruddy.
I am not medicating myself for hypertension. If I suspected that I had high blood pressure(my mom has it) I would certainly seek the advice of my Doctor. It goes without saying that all medications and even vitamins, teething tablets (homeopathic) and other natural and homeopathic items are always out of reach of our children.
I've not been sleeping well and probably have over reacted, but I feel the need to defend myself. And again, I don't doubt that I may have taken your post/advice the wrong way due to just being irritable right now, but I am going to explain myself anyway.
If you are questioning my use of clonidine, I did purchase it in hopes of helping with W/D from either planned or unplanned holidays. Sometimes things go wrong and holidays are forced, sometimes I think my body needs a break, and sometimes my pain level decreases where I don't need narcotic medicine for my pain, but I will have physical withdrawal if I stop taking it.(And for the record, reading this forum and interacting with others that have severe, daily, long term pain, makes me put away the pity party supplies and realize that my condition/pain could be much worse, and I am very fortunate to sometimes have breaks from the pain).
The reason that I chose clonidine is actually because of a previous experience. I was put on the anti depressant imipramine, along with klonipin, many, many years ago, by an idiot psychiatrist. I was also drinking quite a bit and was forthright with this doc about that. I was in my mid 20's had been married since I was 16 and was going through a divorce. Many of us ignore the warnings of mixing certain drugs togther or with alcohol. I can tell you first hand that if you ever take imipramine, heed those warnings! I went on a drinking binge a few days after being on the meds, and went nutso. Literally nutso. I was not a drunk or alcoholic , but did a lot of weekend Partying. I don't know if it was the drug or what, but instead of the 'normal'(at that time) getting drunk, going home and sleeping it off and waking the next day with a bad head, I apparently drank for about a 36 hour period, with no sleep. I also lost track of how much medication I took and judging from the number of pills that were left in the bottle, I must have decided to go ahead and take a weeks worth in one dose. To this day don't know what I did, but at some point, someone(thankfully) decided I was a danger to myself and I earned a week long evaluation stay on the psych ward at the hospital. My Doctor put me on clonidine to ward off hangover and w/d from drinking so long and so much. It really worked.( I think that was the ONLY good thing that Doc did for me) I was a bit tired and quite confused and embarrassed, but virtually had no hangover the next day. So, that is the reason I chose clonidine. I figured if it helped alcohol w/d why not give it a shot for narcotic w/d.
I was careful with both the clonidine and the buprenorphine, and in fact took too little of the buprenorphine the first day. But, I am always cautious when taking any drug that I have not taken before, prescriptons and OTC, because I often react differently than what seems to be the 'norm'.
Sorry...got long winded here again. One of these days I am going to post a short 2 or 3 sentence post...I swear I am!
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Cheers,
B~
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goddard3
Stranger
Reged: 02/11/04
Posts: 20
Loc: Southeast
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This may be a stupid question on this thread, but should one always try to at times take a hydro holiday? I suffer from pretty sever chronic back pain that is intolerable without my medication. I try to take between 4 to 6 lorcet 10/650 daily for breakthru pain and wear a duragesic patch for 72 hrs for the constant pain and also have a spinal cord implant stimulator. I hurt pretty badly whithout my meds. I have been medicaticated now for almost a full year, and am fully functional and still able to do a pretty stressful job as well as take care of my 10 and 12 yr old boys. should i be taking a hydro holiday? and if so, where do i get the medication and what should i get? Just curious and hope one can help answer my question. thanks
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Quote:
This may be a stupid question on this thread, but should one always try to at times take a hydro holiday? I suffer from pretty sever chronic back pain that is intolerable without my medication. I try to take between 4 to 6 lorcet 10/650 daily for breakthru pain and wear a duragesic patch for 72 hrs for the constant pain and also have a spinal cord implant stimulator. I hurt pretty badly whithout my meds. I have been medicaticated now for almost a full year, and am fully functional and still able to do a pretty stressful job as well as take care of my 10 and 12 yr old boys. should i be taking a hydro holiday? and if so, where do i get the medication and what should i get? Just curious and hope one can help answer my question. thanks
I don't think that is a stupid question, but I don't think there is any correct answer either.
I think many take holidays to lower tolerance, which at least in my case, can spike up rather quickly.
And then there is always the case when something unexpected happens and you suddenly find yourself out of medication. Then what? You have terrible pain, which feels even worse when you are in Withdrawal, you're mentally and physically in a 'funk' and just generally miserable and probably making your family miserable too!
If you are comfortable with what and how much you are taking, don't notice an increasing tolerance or have any other issues or problems with your use, then I would say why take a holiday?(I was going to add....'if you and your Doc are comfy with your use, but as we all know, many Docs would prefer we suffer more and medicate less). It also sounds like you would have a lot of pain if you were to take a holiday, and likely not function as well as you are.
I took only a 3 day holiday...which makes me mad at myself, because to me that was pretty much just wastiing the temgesic...which I know I will someday need! In fact I am tapering now, with plans to start and stick with, a holiday soon.
Good Luck.
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Cheers,
B~
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Deedie
Board Addict
Reged: 05/29/02
Posts: 347
Loc: USA
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FYI my physiologist suggested the use of clonidine for WD. He said they help, and he's actually ran a few pain programs, and worked for many pain clinics. He is so understanding of my pain, and my use of narcotics for pain. I just wish he was an MD so he would prescribe for me. He believes that doctors are stupid to be afraid of treating pain. He said a lot more, but I don't feel comfortable about derailing this thread. Except the use of the clonidine as one of a few remedies for withdrawals.
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Dee
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Bonkers46
Journeyman
Reged: 10/24/02
Posts: 88
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Thanks, Brenda for the info. I will look into it. All I can say for anyone interested, when I went through hydro withdrawal under medical care, the combo of the blood pressure med, benzo, and a muscle relaxant made it a breeze. The blood pressure med alone was working great til I got the other meds in me then I was even better. The combo is the best.
bonkers
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