brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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I KNOW I may tick off a few people with this post. I guess I am a glutton or something. Honestly, I don't know why I feel compelled to let my fingers keep on typing!
But I do....I want to start with how/why I felt this needed exploring.
I was browsing through some old posts and found one, "My doc made me a drug addict".
This article ticked off a lot of people. I began to respond to it, but decided against doing so as the thread was a year old, and referenced an article in a magazine, obviously we can't go to the local supermarket and pick up the magazine and read the article.
But I wanted to comment on the flip side:
My Hubby suffers kidney stones. I don't mean he passes a stone once or twice a year. He is loaded with them and has had 3 lithotripsies(sp?) since September 2003, and is still passing stones pretty much weekly.
Back around the end of August/Early September he started seeing a new Urologist. He had just gotten medical insurance and was searching for someone to help prevent the stones. And prevent the trips to the ER for Toradol and Morphine shots.
Anyway, this Urologist starts out by telling Hubby he has never found a patient he couldn't cure of kidney stones and hands him a script for 40# 10/500 Lortabs(no refills) take 1-2 every 3-4 hours, along with Toradol.
I didn't think too much of it, sure it would be a 'short term' remedy and I did see the excruciating pain that hubby was often in.
Well 3 lithotripsies were done over the next couple months, and all through this, Doc kept giving him the same scripts. Keep in mind each script had no refill, so Doc was writing one out each time(or calling it in). My husband pretty much had weekly appts. with the urlologist for tests, x-rays and what not. Hubby drives as part of his job, so he took much less during the day than at night and on weekends, but was still going through at least 40-50 of 10/500's a week.
After about 6 weeks of this I got concerned. When I approached my husband about it, warning him about the addictive nature of hydros, the amount he was taking, etc, etc, he got defensive, basically it was the 'I'm still in pain even taking these...what do you expect' type of argument. It was a no win situation, becuase we both were right. My concerns were he was thrown into 15-20 mg doses every few hours when he wasn't working(per the script instructions), and he 5-10mg doses ever 4-5 hours other times.
Okay, so one day in I think Late January to early February, hubby passes a whopper of a stone the day before a scheduled 4th lithotripsy. After some X-rays, it became apparent that the just 'passed' stone had been stuck in his ureter for all these months and was the main cause of the pain. (How the urlogist missed it on the other litho's is beyond me and off subject...)
Hubby was thrilled he was suddenly pain free after 5-6 months of just about constant pain. 
Boy was he in for a shocker when he started feeling crappier and crappier and crappier! (No, I didn't say 'I told you so')
I talked to him about tapering, the Thompson(Thomas?) recipe, basically tried to be supportive and helpful. I Felt the best step would be to call Doc and be absoulutely truthful and tell Doc he needed meds to taper with as he was suffering W/D. Hubby refused adamantly. So I suggested calling Doc and asking for meds for pain just like he had been getting. Nope to that too.
I think he had about 5# 10's left. Basically he just suffered and would take 1/2 or less of one when he was really hurting badly. It took about 3 weeks for him to get pretty much back to feeling well.
Well, after about a month off the hydro he began passing another stone. Fearing the awful W/D he tried to pass it without pain meds. He went about 3 or 4 days in pain and finally he gave in on a Friday afternoon; but he was a couple hours away from home, He asked me to call his Doc to get a script, to help pass the stone. I left the message for the Doctor, and Doctor called me back.
Doc started out by asking if I was concerned with my husband's 'drug use' . Those were his words.
I answered that I HAD been(past tense) but after seeing him go through the withdrawals, I saw that there was a definite dependence, but not addiction. The Doc lectured on, and on about addiction and addicts will do anything to get the drugs, etc, and did not seem to take one thing I said into consideration or even hear one thing I said, after he had asked my opinion. I tried to tell this Doctor that my husband had spent the last few days in severe pain but was trying hard to avoid using the hydro due to fear of the W/D again. He at first refused the script. I talked the Doc into writing a 10 count of 7.5's to get my husband through the weekend. This same Doctor up until only a few weeks earlier had been giving my husband hydros like candy and to my knowledge without much in the way of warnings. My husband has not been back to see this doctor, he is still passing stones, and has not taken any hydro in 5-6 weeks.
I am researching getting him tylenol #3 or possibly even a consult with NWW, for future stones.
I am sorry to get so long winded here, but I was/am still thoroughly ticked off! This Doctor should have been monitoring the prescriptions he was writing earlier. He should have talked to my husband about the amount of hydro he was taking and the risks. Okay, and I concede it may not have been possible to avoid dependence in this and many other cases, however, then the Urologist should have been willing to work with my husband to taper the hydros. Instead of basically calling him a drug addict. I was/still am offended by this.
Yes, the pill bottles are have warnings. But generally speaking, I really don't think that most of us believe that by taking medication as prescribed it will lead to dependence, or, what someone unfamiliar with actually living with chronic and or long term pain and pain meds would call 'addiction'.
I also believe that this happens more frequently than we would like to think, that a Doc suddenly says, "Oh Best if kept off the board I have written X amount of scripts for X".
Now, I only wanted to explore this because I am on the other side of the coin, where I have a hard time getting adequate pain medications, and think it is ironic that unsuspecting people get sucked into pain med dependence, while others of us can't get a sypmathetic Doc to just write us an adequate supply!
If you've made it this far, thanks for lending your ear/eyes...mind...I dunno!
B~
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Cheers,
B~
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mermaid72000
Member
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 125
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this is just my opinion but that dr is definitely at fault, he should have seen it coming and to talk about your husbands drug use? has the dr ever passed a stone? this dr sounds very unprofessional and really does not understand opiates cant just suddenly stop well they can but the wd are so intense the stones do not look so bad. i would not let this dr get away with this. they have some one to answer to also. he prescribed all these hydros and then cut him off in the middle of the road. i would go to a higher level, becuz your husband sounds like he has had his share of pain. no good dr would script like candy and then just cut off. take care and keep us posted
carol
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zoe11
Journeyman

Reged: 11/04/03
Posts: 87
Loc: Other side of the moon
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I agree with mermaid. That was a terrible thing for the doctor to do. Geeze . . . . what's up with that?
You are right that is the flip side of the coin, and doctors should know that. After a person has surgery, docs taper people off drugs all the time. Naughty doctor.
z
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johng
Board Addict
Reged: 02/13/03
Posts: 358
Loc: great lakes
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My doctor who was always very liberal with pain meds once cut me off. by tje flip of the coin my chart was aduited because the phamacy flagged me. so he as well as my chart got reviewd. he told me stight out that he had to limit the amount of pain meds for all patients for fear of DEA svrutiny. he is compassionate and belives that one gets better faster when they are able to function w/o or lttle pain as possible.
he feared that he would loose his dea lic. so when people are cut off there may be more to the story then the patient knows.
my 2 cents
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Ask and it will be given to you Matthew 7:7
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lttlbit
Member
Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 194
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I agree with everyone else to. Doctors just do not seem to care. I think that the more they make their patients come back for refills the more money they get from the insurance company or from the patients pocket. It is awful I feel real bad for your husband this is totally the docs fault and if I were you I would write a letter to the doctor and maybe to his superior or to the board. It was bad enough your husband had to go through the pain of the stones and then the withdrawls to, that is just terrible.
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gottadoit
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/21/03
Posts: 269
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I hate reading posts like this. When doctors hand out scripts without even thinking about it and then abruptly STOP what do they think is going to happen? Dependence due to a bona fide medical condition is much different than a "junkie's addiction". Any one who takes pain meds over a long period is going to develop a tolerance. It does NOT make them an addict. Just becuase someone who is DEPENDENT goes thru wd when their pain meds are abruptly stopped again does not make them an ADDICT. A responsible doc, who prescribed ALL of those meds (all he had to do was go back and add up all the pills and he should have been able to see what HE did) will help a patient TAPER off the pain meds.
A dear friend of mine had breast cancer (luckily she survived it and is doing GREAT!! No cancer anywhere!) and was on BOAT LOADS of pain medications including hydro, oxycontin, percs for breakthru pain, patches - you name it. Anyway, when the treatments were successful and she was "cured" she obviously wanted OFF the pain meds. The doctor lectured her for an hour on what would happen to her if she stopped abruptly and put her on a taper schedule that lasted about 6 weeks. She felt NO wd at all. When she was done, that was it, she felt great.
That is the way doctors should stop pain medications for those that have been taking it long term, not cut them off. That is medically and ethically irresponsible.
BTW - your husband's doctor violated HIPPA by discussing his medication with you. Unless you husband actually signed a release (it can NOT be verbal) that he could speak with you about his condition/treatment, he violated federal law.
IMO there was nothing wrong with your post Brenda, you brought up an important issue that I'm sure has happened to many people.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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Brenda-
Same story here, except my doctor was treating my migraines with IM/IV Demerol for over 8 years. I was getting it 2-4 times a week the entire time. In addition, towards the end of that time, I developed cancer and was given MSContin and Percocet for pain control. When the cancer was treated and the pain substantially reduced, my other doctor decided with all the narcotics I had been getting (I had been honest with all of my docs about the meds I took) that I was an "addict" and I was never to come back to his office again. Not knowing ANYTHING about opiate withdrawal, I thought my symptoms were panic attacks and went to a psychiatrist for help. I was given Ativan and Klonopin and it only zombified me, didn't help with the mysterious and abrupt "panic" (I had no idea what true panic was either at that time.) Finally, I consented to go to drug treatment because my family thought I needed it. I went and learned that I was very unlike the other people there--especially since I didn't use the narcotics to get "high" from. I left treatment with more questions than answers and developed a huge distrust of doctors. I then was told about methadone maintenance. And, that's where I HAD to turn for help with feeling "normal" again.
Drug addiction is a much different thing than physical dependence! But most medical professionals see them as one and the same. I was lucky when I found a compassionate doctor and was treated respectfully and with concern. Now I get my pain medications through a local hospital pain clinic and the staff there, even knowing about my past history, has never acted suspicous or condescending towards me.
I'm sorry your husband had to learn about dependence the hard way!
PS- This is the much condensed version of affairs. I have also had multiple other significant health problems throughout my life requiring narcotic pain medications.
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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booker
Board Addict
Reged: 08/15/03
Posts: 348
Loc: The Moon
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I figure when a Dr. gives a script with no refills that he's doing it to keep an eye on the refill use. I should work like this - You or the pharmacy needs to contact him for the refill, he should be looking at your chart to see when the last refill was and make sure you just didn't fill it last week when it was to last a month, (example). So, he should know exactly what he was doing as far as meds and refills. What a total insult for him to start lecturing on addiction when he was the one who was "controlling" the refills. Also, I am stunned that he even talked to you about it. That is a big no no, even tho you are the spouse. I think everyone's post I read here is pretty much right on. You have not ticked anyone off, certainly you have much empathy for your situation and your husband. I'm glad you posted your experience with us and keep us informed on how your husband is doing, ok? 
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"would you like to swing on a star, carry moonbeams home in a jar, and be better off than you are, or would you rather be a ....."
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gottadoit
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/21/03
Posts: 269
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Nightshade - what a horrible story!! You were being treated for cancer and the doctor decided you were an addict?? What in sweet mercy was he thinking?? You had cancer - you can't fake that!! And if he was aware of all the meds you were taking (and the fact that he was prescribing most of them) there should have been NO questions about this! This is really terrible. How could he just release you from care?? To have to go from all of those medications to methadone is like going from the frying pan into the fire. I know that methadone can be an excellent medication for opiate addiction/dependence and pain management, but I also have read that it is the HARDEST medication to come off of. My friend is a rehab nurse and she says most of the methadone patients they detox were ex-heroin addicts. She said that 99% of them wish that they had just stayed on the herion because it would have been easier to get off of then the methadone. It's bad when the "treatment" is worse than the "disease"! If you don't mind me asking (please don't answer if you feel this is too personal) are you still taking methadone? Have you ever tried to stop? I'm curious if your experience is as bad as the others I have heard about.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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I must have written that poorly...when my cancer was successfully treated, I was weaned from the morphine. It was my other doctor that was treating the migraines that cut me off cold-turkey.
Also, my personal doctor was writing for the methadone "detox." It was my idea to get off that horrible maintenance program. Anyway, I made it down to 3mgs/day from 100. I did very well until I got down to 20-ish mgs. Then the w/d started seriously affecting me and my pain issues became severe again. (After so many years on high methadone doses, the pain issues receded greatly and I thought I was "over it"...found out differently once the methadone was substantially reduced.) A referral to a pain management clinic last month effectively ended any thoughts I had of "detox." With a substantial new injury (fracture of T7) and the diagnosis (FINALLY) of the DDD with 4 (I think?) "bulging" disks, the PM doc strongly suggested changing my mind about the detox and increased my methadone prescription to 30mgs (10mgs every 8 hours) which has allowed me to have my life back again.
Also, I attended maintenance for many years and NEVER knew of or met a single person who had successfully detoxed from methadone and who did not eventually go back on heroin or other opioids. It's purely hellish and, for me, I had life-threatening blood pressure requiring medical intervention (which is how my doc got around the laws about prescribing methadone for detox/maintenance reasons.)
So, now I have had a new perspective and overcome my own personal stigma of the maintenance program.
Thanks for asking!
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah

Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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night shade,
Just wanted to congratulate you on beating cancer. Best of luck to you in the future.
-yawkaw
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mermaid72000
Member
Reged: 01/19/04
Posts: 125
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My husband used heroin for 2 years and then went on a one year methadone program 10 years ago. never touched it again, when his pcp scripted hydro for a month i was very nervous that he would have a problem again but after the month he is hydro free and doing good. i completely tapered off hydro becuz in my mind i did not want opiates around the house. my pain was for a accident at work and i am over it. i felt that him on opiates could cause a problem and i was relived that the dr gave him no refills and gave him a cortisone shot for pain with bextra. i really felt he was playing with fire being on hydro for that month and he was not all that nice to be around either. just my experience. it really was very scary
take care
carol
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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I am feeling really blessed for finding this board. What a great bunch of supportive people!
I am really glad I didn't 'tick' anyone by complaining about a doc over writing scripts(which I think happens less often then under-prescribing).
As for privacy, I beleve that my husband likely signed for me to be able to discuss his medicl history with the doc. BUT it was insulting for the addiction 'talk'.
Now the problem is when my husband is in pain, he is trying to steer clear of the hydro. Quite luckily for him, he was not 'addicted' but clearly physically dependent. He doesn't have the mental cravings.
I am wondering if anyone has any info or knows if tylenol 3 may be appropriate for him, since he is a little 'scared' of hydro now.
I know that in the past, 4-5 years ago he was given tylox for the pain when he was Passing stones. So does anyone know are tylenol 3 and tylox the same?
Also, to be clear, his Doc has not said he wouldn't write another hydro script, but he will write it only if the x-rays show stones in process of passing(I think in the ureter or whatever)stones. So basically he has to go to the hospital, get x-rays, take them to Doc, before he can get a script. While,in theory, this should not be a problem, and will be safe for both parties; the Doc can be sure my husband won't ask for drugs he doesn't need. The hours it takes to get all that done leaves him in pain for those hours. And he has to take at least a 1/2 day off work to get all that done. Those that have experience with stones, know when they have one and it is ridiculous to have an x-ray each time. Also, the amount of stomes he pases I wm wondering what the insurance limit will be. Eventually he will meet that limit and we can't pay for all these x-rays!
Also they have him drinking tons of lemon juice (he mixes it with diet Mountain Dew...YUCK)which is supposed to disovlve the stones(I think their are 14 left in his kidneys) and prevent new ones from forming. that's just an FYI for anyone else who experiences problems with kidney stones. If the lemon juice doesn't work in 6 months they are going to put him on some type of meds for severe problems like his, that help prevent stones. From what I have heard, this med has very yucky side effects.
Thanks guys and gals...again y'all are great.

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Cheers,
B~
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ken2
Journeyman
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 70
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I'm not 100% sure, but I think that Tylox is a form of oxycodone, which is a schedule 2 medication, and possibly more addictive than hydrocodone (or at least equally so). As for Tylenol # 3, it contains codeine. I think I've read that a Tylenol 3 is about equal to a 5 mg hydrocodone. But it also is habit forming or addictive. I think that anyone who has been addicted to heroin or any other narcotic, based on taking it for something other than physical pain, has to be concerned about taking any of the drugs you mentioned. But that doesn't mean that someone with a history of drug addiction, should not get proper treatment for severe pain such as from kidney stones, and sometimes narcotics are needed, but yes the risks of addiction are always there. Best wishes for your husband and yourself!
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tone
Veteran
Reged: 06/29/03
Posts: 554
Loc: Chicago
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the doctors interpret a druggie as: one who takes pain meds for pain for 6 months and suffers a withdrawl. they expect you to take several 10s a day for months and months, then just go off it like it was tylonal, or else your a drug addict.
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lovepink
Goddess

Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1476
Loc: NYC Metro Area
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Quote:
I'm not 100% sure, but I think that Tylox is a form of oxycodone, which is a schedule 2 medication, and possibly more addictive than hydrocodone (or at least equally so). As for Tylenol # 3, it contains codeine
Yes, you're right. Tylox is oxycodone & acetaminophen & Tylenol 3 is codeine & acetaminophen. The original poster may have confused the foreign brand name Tylex (for Tylenol 3) with Tylox.
Take care
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kayleighbear
Member
Reged: 12/01/03
Posts: 102
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That's very interesting about the lemon juice. My husband was just dx last week for his first stone (16mm~too large to pass) and he goes in for lithotripsy tomorrow. I'll tell him about the lemon juice thing, but not sure if he could do that daily because he has acid reflux problems. Good to know though.
Has your husband been to an endocrinologist to try and figure out "why" he gets so many stones? That's where we're headed after we get rid of this one.
I've heard from a friend that uses Tylenol #3 that she didn't build up a tolerance while she was on them like she did when she was taking hydro.
K
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CeeBee
Member
Reged: 08/09/03
Posts: 187
Loc: garden state
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Nightshade, I am so glad you beat the cancer, however I would like to beat your stupid doctor over the head! What a crappy, unsympathetic thing he did to you, as if you didn't have enough to endure. Gotta, on the flip side your friend is very luck to have a doctor who was realistic enough to know people cannot be expected to just stop taking large dosages of pain medication. Brenda, my mother-in-law goes for the lipotripys things, she is loaded with stones too, they were giving her percocets and hydros now they do not want to give her any! She is over 80 and does not drive only goes out of the house with someone. What the heck is wrong with these doctors? Why can't she be comfortable? I feel bad for your husband, that must have been horrible for him and he should have been tapered by his doctor and you should not have been lectured, you had a better more realistic view of the situation than he did. And of course your husband is going to need more medication.
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Quote:
Has your husband been to an endocrinologist to try and figure out "why" he gets so many stones? That's where we're headed after we get rid of this one.
K
He has had his stones analyzed several times. But I am not sure what an endocrinologist is?
He 'catches' his stones in a strainer and saves them for the Doc. This doc, and another urologist he's used in the past(who's retired) has sent them out to be analized and we have never had any real answers to why he gets them. The norm is for them to be calcium ( I think) and I do know that his were not calcium.
Other than this lemon juice thing, he has been given a list of items to avoid in the past. The list didnt make a lot of sense and had everything from chocolate to green beans on it. The Doc that gave it to him, also said there was no proof that the diet worked????
Good luck with your husband. Hope all goes well with the lithotripsy.
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Cheers,
B~
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brenda1231
Journeyman

Reged: 11/22/03
Posts: 52
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Quote:
Yes, you're right. Tylox is oxycodone & acetaminophen & Tylenol 3 is codeine & acetaminophen. The original poster may have confused the foreign brand name Tylex (for Tylenol 3) with Tylox.
Okay, thanks for the info.
Now this makes more sense to me.
When my husband first went to see this urologist, he asked if it were possible to get a few tylox for night, and a weaker med for days. Basicaly he told the Doc the tylox he had been given in the past was too strong for him to be able to work on. I was thinking the tylox was codeine, and so was surprised that he was given 10/500 hydrocodone, since I knew that was not 'weaker' than codeine.
So now it makes sense why the Doc put him on the hydro in the first place.
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Cheers,
B~
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STARCHILD007
Journeyman
Reged: 03/03/04
Posts: 72
Loc: EAST COAST
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I JUST HAVE TO SAY THIS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT DEPENDANCE AND WITHDRAWL. THE TWO MOST ADDICTING PRESCRIPTION DRUGS (ONE YOU WILL BE SURPRISED BY) WITH THE MOST SEVERE WITHDRAWLS ARE AS FOLLOWS- MORPHINE, THEN CODIEN. YES CODINE. CODIENS STRUCTURE IS SO CLOSE TO MORPHINE THEY MIMICK EACHOTHER IN WITHDRAWL SYMPTOMES. BUT THE # ONE MOST INTOLERABLE WITHDRAWL SYMPTOMES(AND LONGEST,30 DAYS OR MORE) GOES TOOOOOO-----METHADONE!!! WICH IS FUNNY BECAUSE ITS USE TO GET YOU OFF OF SOMTHING ELSE. MOST HEROIN USERS GO BACK TO HEROIN AFTER BEING ON METHADONE TO KICK METHADONE (IF THEY CANT GET HYDROCODONE)HYDROCODONE IS THE LEAST PAINFULL OF WITHDRALS, AND THE SHORTEST (2-3 DAYS)SINCE ITS A SEMI SYNTHETIC OPIOID. BUUUUTT,,DONT GET ME STARTRED ON "FENTYNAL" A SYNTHETIC 100 TIMES MORE POWERFULL THAN HEROIN.HOPE THIS INFO IS USEFULL. GOOD LUCK, STEVE007
Edited by steve007 (03/08/04 09:18 AM)
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lovepink
Goddess

Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1476
Loc: NYC Metro Area
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I suppose it depends on an individual's body chemistry, length and amount of use as to whether or not certain opiates/opioids have longer and/or worse WDs. As a few DBers here can attest, my hydro WDs have lasted WAY longer than 2-3 days yet I never experienced WD coming off 90 mg. morphine 2x per day.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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You don't have to tell me about methadone withdrawal. It wins hands down for the longest and toughest withdrawal I have experienced. Morphine was a joy to kick in comparison. Just a few days of sweating, nausea/vomiting and insomnia that lasted several months but was easily treated with 200mgs of Trazadone.
HOWEVER...the thread title is "Flip side of the coin.....Accidental Dependence" and we don't like to change the titles mid-thread. Hence, I have changed it back.
It is common knowledge that this board is a place for us to share our ideas, experiences and OPINIONS. Blanket statements about withdrawal (among other things) are simply opinions and may not apply as truth for everyone.
Just a little perspective.
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Edited by night_shade (03/08/04 06:37 PM)
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