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snakey
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Reged: 05/20/03
Posts: 103
Loc: cally
liver failure
      #132161 - 01/27/04 11:43 AM

Question for anyone,There is a board I visit,and a guy died last week,his wife does not know from what yet,but he was taking 30-40 hydro a day,and has cut down to 8 I think and so he said,people are thinking and asking about his liver,I personally think he took to many,but can hydro build up in your liver and accumulate over time and your liver shuts down, and you go to bed to never wake up? or does the liver cleanse itself everyday,He did claim he had liver tests and they came back good. I was under the impression myself that hydro clears your system everday and does not build up to toxic levels over time,this is scary if it is true,I have cut my usage down to 4 aday occassionaly 6,I am now looking for alternative treatment expecially after hearing this horrific news,I thought also you have some signs when you are reaching toxic levels,I know with 20-30 pills a day you can have breathing problems and depress your system,but does this all build up.I hope I explained this ok. anybody and everybody on this one,I know yawkaw is good for this one,but you know he is so busy with school right yawkaw,and I think alot of different feedback on this one would be good. thanks everyone scary isn't it,expecially were he said he was down to 8...

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night_shade
Threadhead


Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
Re: liver failure [Re: snakey]
      #132162 - 01/27/04 11:50 AM

I'm certainly not an expert on hepatotoxicity, but my semi-educated opinion would be acetaminophen overdose/toxicity rather than hydrocodone toxicity of the liver in the case you specified.

Hydrocodone IS broken down in the liver into its metabolites, but a person would die from respiratory depression from hydrocodone's metabolites long before anything could accumulate in the liver in quantities sufficient to cause liver failure.

If someone is using 30-40 regular 5/500 Vicodins every day--and in order to do so for any period of time without causing death by opiate overdose, that person would have developed a tolerance to the hydrocodone--that would be 15,000 mgs (15grams) to 20,000 mgs of acetaminophen per day for a long period of time. This is DEFINITELY enough to damage and eventually cause complete failure of the liver.

--------------------
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.


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snakey
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Reged: 05/20/03
Posts: 103
Loc: cally
Re: liver failure [Re: night_shade]
      #132167 - 01/27/04 12:02 PM

thanks nightshade that is what I meant does the acet. build up over time,or does your body cleanse it.

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pickles
Journeyman


Reged: 11/09/03
Posts: 54
Loc: Indiana
Re: liver failure [Re: snakey]
      #132181 - 01/27/04 12:38 PM

Quote:

Question for anyone,There is a board I visit,and a guy died last week,his wife does not know from what yet,but he was taking 30-40 hydro a day,




Was there alcohol involved?maybe?

This is not uncommon at all.I frequent alot of American Legions,as i am a Commander in the Sons,I talk to alot of the old-timers there.Figure,these guys have been on pain meds for 20-30 years or better.I hear time and time again,numbers in the 50's-60's,most take the 10's.I'm glad this topic was brought up.More and more i here on this board about people freaking out or worrying about their liver.Such as," i used to take one and a half,now i'm up to two a day,will the acet.kill my liver"?Or,i'm goin' with the norco to stay away from the tylenol.That's great and all,but there's a reason,for years,that hydro was combined w/500 mg's acet,The acet,helps the hydro find the receptors for relief,and this being said,500mg was the counter-part to the hydro.

I in no way condone 50-60 hydro's a day or even 8,all i'm saying is that there have been some pretty silly stuff written here in the past few months.I believe 4 days ago i read where this gentlemen posted "i took 2 5/500,as i normally take 1,am i going to OVERDOSE on either acet or hydro?"

Anyway,this is precisely why Oxy was created for us,thanx to all the celebrity moles,looks like we'll continue with acute-temporary meds for ever.


By the way,there is always a trade-off in life,hydro,acet,etc,none of this is propbably good for us,so i am a believer in HOLIDAYS.


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D2003
Member


Reged: 12/12/03
Posts: 193
Loc: Texas
Re: liver failure [Re: snakey]
      #132199 - 01/27/04 01:57 PM

Judging just from what was in your post, that much Hydro....well, the Tylenol probably did far more damage to his liver than the Hydro ever could. Personally, I believe that Tylenol to be the most dangerous medication on the market today. Not the opiates that ensure us a reasonable quality of life. Hydro breaks down to basic Morphine once it has been through the liver, and is flushed out of the system pretty quickly. Tylenol, on the other hand, breaks down into all kinds of nasty-for-your-liver chemicals that most people cannot flush out of their bodies quickly or easily. Instead of stamping all over our Hydro products, they should be taking a good, long look at Tylenol.

*Some* small level of Tylenol is need to make the Hydro more effective, but 500mg or even 325mg is still too high. My compound has just 160mg and is every bit as good as the former 500's and 325's I used to take. Seems the lowest dosage of Tylenol, that still assists the Hydro to do its job, it 80mg. But again, you can only get this through a compounding pharmacy. It is not available on the open market. The highest level of Tylenol recommeded by the government is just 4,000mg daily. Even that, over the long term can cause some major problems. Much better, in my humble opinion, to get the lowest dosage of Tylenol you can, even if this means using a compounding pharmacy to get it.


D2003


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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
Re: liver failure [Re: snakey]
      #132272 - 01/27/04 10:59 PM

Let me explain why APAP in high doses is bad for your liver, and then I'll answer your question.

When you take APAP, the vast majority of it gets converted into harmless metabolites. But part of it does become this stuff called NAPQI. In a normal dose, a substance in the body called glutathione binds to the NAPQI, and the end result is harmless. But when you take too much APAP, there is not enough glutathione to bind to all that NAPQI, and the NAPQI begins to kill cells in your liver and kidney. That is very oversimplified, but it gives you a picture of what happens.

Now, even though some liver cells are dying, you could still live for quite a while. APAP toxicity is notoriously quiet in coming on, you may not realize there is a problem for a long time- THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE OK. It takes a lot to get liver failure, and it is even more unlikely for you to need a liver transplant, and at that point still even more unlikely for you to die.

BUT IT IS STILL NOT A SAFE THING TO DO!!!

Even if you don't die, why would you want to risk liver failure and the possibility of needing an actual liver transplant??? Kidney failure could happen too, but that is generally something that happens when you already have severe hepatoxicity (a dangerously bad liver) and have not sought treatment.

This is exactly why I always say people should use NAC with meds in dosages higher than they are supposed to be, it's what you would be given in the ER if you OD'd on APAP, but it is also believed to have a preventive effect on liver damage. BUT IT IS NOT A LICENSE TO ABUSE APAP! Your liver will certainly thank you, but there is no guarantee that you will still be fine.

If you have been doing this, taking 30 pills a day, please get to a doctor and have a liver profile done. Just tell the doctor you have had a family member who had some liver problems at the same age as you and you want to get it checked out.

When the lab results come back, the doctor is looking to see if your ALT and AST are too high. At that point, I'd suggest coming clean to your doctor who will start you on NAC therapy. Most PCP's would probably admit you to the hospital for further evaluation, but that is a good thing here. If you catch this in time, you can save yourself and get a second chance.

Let me just say this- 300-400 mg of hydrocodone per day indicates a substance abuse problem (lemme rephrase that- virtually all medical professionals would consider that substance abuse, I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I do want to make the point). Please at least think about getting some help; if you don't care about your liver, take some time to think about where your life is headed- and don't dose up when you realize it, get to a doctor. An addiction medicine psychiatrist could get you off of it with buprenorphine, or you could possibly get on methadone- s(he) will also be able to make educated guess about your liver damage and steer you in the right direction for treatment.

-yawkaw


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snakey
Member


Reged: 05/20/03
Posts: 103
Loc: cally
Re: liver failure [Re: yawkaw3]
      #132305 - 01/28/04 05:24 AM

thanks yawkaw,I knew you would ans.thanks so much.

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Dasani
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Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 286
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Re: liver failure [Re: yawkaw3]
      #132308 - 01/28/04 05:44 AM

Yawkaw,

That post was touching and very insightful! Thank you very much. You will be one heck of an MD when it's all said and done. So, is the test called a LIVER PROFILE? I have a "friend" who needs to get one because he got Malaria while in the Military in Africa and he also takes 4-5 10mg hydro's a day. Sorry everyone, I didn't mean to open up the "friends" can of worms again, but I couldn't stop myself!

D

Edited by Dasani (01/28/04 05:50 AM)


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BlackCat
Old Hand


Reged: 09/22/03
Posts: 403
Loc: Bed
Re: liver failure [Re: Dasani]
      #132332 - 01/28/04 07:45 AM

The blood test for liver problems is called the "LFT panel" or "LFT profile"... LFT=Liver Functioning Test... which gives you numbers for AST and ALT that Yawkaw3 referenced...

You can easily have this run when they take your blood to check your cholesterol (lipid profile) during a routine physical, etc. - just ask the doctor to have the lab run the LFT panel (he checks a box on the blood test form) and have a backup story about family liver problems if he questions you. If he knows you take pain meds with APAP, there is no reason to make anything up - tell the truth... better to test and identify problems early...

I always folllow up with the doc's office and get copies of the blood test results mailed to me with the specific AST and ALT #s (and other key blood numbers - cholesterol, HDL, etc.) that I track in a spreadsheet to develop a longitudinal profile to help alert me to problems. (instead of just calling them and having them say "everything looks fine").


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Dasani
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Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 286
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Re: liver failure [Re: BlackCat]
      #132338 - 01/28/04 07:52 AM

BlackCat,

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, the doctor knows that "my friend" takes the pain meds and also that he has Malaria, in fact, that particular doctor recommended the liver funct. tests. He wasn't really sure how to go about asking for the test or even what the test is called, but I will definitely pass along this much appreciated information. By the way, my friend is now blind from the Malaria (I think) or some other horrible disease he acquired in the Military, which is why he can't do this research himself on the internet. So I'm happy to help him out with info like this when I can. I figure it's the least I can do, since the guy risked his life protecting our Country and defending our Freedom. All your info and help is greatly appreciated, Thanks

D


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lemongrass
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Reged: 09/23/03
Posts: 361
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Re: liver failure [Re: Dasani]
      #132389 - 01/28/04 12:38 PM

Dasani, bless your friend for his courage and bravery. I'm sorry he ended up in his current state of health on account of his call to duty, though.

I know enough about liver toxicity because I have Hep C, but not as much as I probably should. But often argue and debate over the use of APAP to treat any of my pain issues. The medical professionals all seem to think there's little or no risk at all. Well, when I'm not given proper pain medication and I have no choice to pop hundreds of Acet. & Ibu. for my pain, what does that say?

It's to my clear understanding that everything is accumulative in our system. So, over the duration of many years, we can die from things that have taken time to accumlate, so your friend's death isn't all too surprising, considering the great dosages he was accustomed to using. Tapering off wouldn't have done a lick of good after all of those years of abuse, unbeknownst to him, I'm sure.

lemongrass

--------------------



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gottadoit
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Reged: 10/21/03
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Re: liver failure [Re: lemongrass]
      #132486 - 01/28/04 06:34 PM

Yawkaw,
Once again let me thank you for your expertise on this and so much else here! I have learned a great deal from you.

I was wondering if you would answer another question (bet you can't wait for the day that you actually get paid to give out this info!!) - what are some of the signs and symptoms that a person is starting to have problems with their liver. I mean the ones that they can "see and/or feel", I know about the bloodwork.

Thanks!!


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prettyday
Threadhead


Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 924
Loc: Coastal Sage Scrub
Re: liver failure [Re: gottadoit]
      #132501 - 01/28/04 07:04 PM

Here is a relevant article about Serzone

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3341618/

--------------------
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

- Mahatma Gandhi



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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
Re: liver failure [Re: gottadoit]
      #132527 - 01/28/04 10:05 PM

Symptoms you're overdoing it with the APAP:

1) Right Upper-Quadrant Pain
2) Severe nausea (moreso than the regular opiate nausea)
3) Vomiting
4) Severe fatigue (moreso than the regular opiate fatigue)

That's really all I remember off the top of my head, I may have said more about this elsewhere on DB. But just because you don't have those symptoms, doesn't mean you're ok. Like I said, APAP toxicity is very secretive in coming on. If anyone has been taking meds in excessive doses, it is very much worth getting checked out. Some people can tolerate more than others, we're all different- but just because someone tells you they've taken 20 a day for two years and have been fine, doesn't mean they're not going to have problems some day, and it certainly doesn't mean you can do that.

If you require that much opiate and you can be honest with yourself that it is strictly for chronic pain, that you've just developed a tolerance over time, then you MUST get on time-released meds without an additive like OxyContin/MSContin/Duragesic/etc. Or compounded hydrocodone is another idea, if you really can't find a doc for your CII's. It's sad to think that you may need to try ten doctors to get what you need, but who is to say that tenth doctor isn't going to be the compassionate one you've been looking for?

Btw gottadoit, you are one of a bunch people I owe PM's to, I will get back to you when I have a free moment, I'm sorry for the delay.

-yawkaw


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snakey
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Posts: 103
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Re: liver failure [Re: yawkaw3]
      #132554 - 01/29/04 03:50 AM

He has definitely helped me see the way,he will be rewarded in the best of ways,I have said this before. I am on a very safe dosage,and if I ever see myself needing more,I know now I will seek out that tenth doctor, your right that may be the one. As always, your friend, thanks yawkaw

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joyous
Newbie


Reged: 01/16/04
Posts: 48
Re: liver failure [Re: D2003]
      #137095 - 02/13/04 11:25 PM

Snakey,
What's a compounding pharmacy? Do you have a doc that prescribes this or is it only available through an OP? I too am quite weary of Tylenol, so any info will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks so much,
Joyous


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sassyg
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Reged: 08/11/02
Posts: 162
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Re: liver failure-MOST IMPORTANT SYMPTOMS!! [Re: yawkaw3]
      #137198 - 02/14/04 07:45 AM

I actually had liver failure caused by a seemingly "safe" drug - NAPROXEN SODIUM!!! I was one of those "less than three percent that experienced severe effects to the liver." Believe me, you don't want to get to this point, or further, so DO NOT DISREGARD the following symptoms (and the others listed above):
1. BLACK bowel movement!! Indicates bleeding, usually
from the Liver, a very vascular organ.
2. EXTREME FATIGUE! Nothing, absolutely nothing, can
keep you from sleeping. I slept for several days
straight.

One of my sister's best friends had an accidental Tylenol overdose and nearly died. She has permanent nerve damage, and trouble walking. From too much Tylenol. DON'T THINK IT CAN'T HAPPEN, IT DOES!!!

I send this post in love, as I understand that there is a lot of severe pain out there, but the solution is not Tylenol (acetominophen) alone! Beware!


--------------------
Sassy!


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Tred
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Reged: 10/18/03
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Re: liver failure-MOST IMPORTANT SYMPTOMS!! [Re: sassyg]
      #138112 - 02/16/04 06:07 PM

I've said this in other past posts too, but I have experienced first hand.. Tylenol toxcicity build-up... My ALT levels rose to 179, upper right quadrant pain, the works. Anyway, after lowering the apap amount to next to nothing, all my symptoms disapeared in less than a month.

It can happen people.. Believe me.. I was at the 4000mg apap mark too. !.

Tred =)

--------------------
Entertainment Specialist!


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turcica
seeker


Reged: 12/21/03
Posts: 312
Re: liver failure [Re: prettyday]
      #138134 - 02/16/04 07:10 PM

prettyday, I was on serzone for years for depression. Then I saw one of those commercials on tv "if you or a loved one has died or had serious damage from taking serzone...". I just about died. I called my doctor and he had just gotten the literature the FDA was sending out. It really made me sick. It was so insidious I didn't realize how bad it was until I was off of it for awhile.Pretty scary. By the way, yaw what ia NAC? You refer to it in one of your posts. turcica

--------------------
turcica
The only failure is not knowing how to be happy
-------------------------------------------------


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Caveman6666
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Reged: 01/15/03
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Re: liver failure [Re: turcica]
      #138278 - 02/17/04 06:34 AM

NAC is N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine.

It's a supplement. Try a search; it's been discussed before.


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