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txhoptoit
Journeyman


Reged: 12/13/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Texas
Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson????
      #134165 - 02/04/04 03:13 PM

Can anyone tell the real difference between Norco 10/325 Vintage and Watson brand?

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turcica
seeker


Reged: 12/21/03
Posts: 312
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: txhoptoit]
      #134186 - 02/04/04 04:11 PM

What is Vintage brand? turcica

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turcica
The only failure is not knowing how to be happy
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txhoptoit
Journeyman


Reged: 12/13/01
Posts: 55
Loc: Texas
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: turcica]
      #134201 - 02/04/04 05:29 PM

Maybe it's not Vintage but the pill has a V on it and a brighter yellow than Watsin Norco 10/325.

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NJ_Hoss
Enthusiast


Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: txhoptoit]
      #134205 - 02/04/04 06:05 PM

Those particluar pills are manufactured by Qualitest.

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Opie_Yates
Old Hand


Reged: 08/11/03
Posts: 470
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: txhoptoit]
      #134222 - 02/04/04 06:41 PM

Quote:

Can anyone tell the real difference between Norco 10/325 Vintage and Watson brand?




I feel the Vintage come on slower but last longer. They're pretty good, actually.

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I'm not a doctor, I just play one on a message forum!


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neofate
Member


Reged: 10/30/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Southeast United States
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: Opie_Yates]
      #134254 - 02/04/04 08:18 PM

Yes sir, you are correct they are manufactured by Qualitest.

As for the slower onset, yet longer duration..

This is attributed to the fillers and binders each manufacture chooses to use. When you consume a tablet medication your stomach, obviously, has to break it down allowing it to enter your bloodstream. Hence, not all binders/fillers are created equal and have equal dissipation and absorption rates. An example:

Take the qualitest manufactured 10/500 (Hydro/apap) vs. the Watson 10/500.

The Qualitest "feel" more solid, smooth, unchalky. These will take a bit longer to get into your system, however the upside is the effect will last longer due to this prementioned effect. Now, on the other hand:

The Watson’s - 10/500 - Blue.. These feel chalky, and even leave a noticeable residue in the container you happen to have them in. These are not as solid, the binding chemicals used to manufacture these are quite different from Qualitests labs, and these will break down and be absorbed into your bloodstream at a higher rate.

Net effect: Qualitest 10/500 (white) - Slower to dissolve - and as such slower onset. (You won't feel quite the "punch", however the overall length of pain relief would be higher, if only slightly.

Watson 10/500 (Blue) - Quicker to dissolve - and faster onset. (The "punch" or relief, will come quicker, and feel more Potent, yet it will wear off slightly quicker.)

Now, there isn't a HUGE difference in these, so I wouldn't be thinking one is superior to the others, I'm just trying to throw out a little knowledge as to why some people get various results from different manufacturers.

The same concept applies to liquid Hydrocodone (IE: your common cough syrup compounds, endal-hd, tussinex, etc) these compounds have the hydrocodone, for all practical matters, in a state of instant absorption by your blood stream (Depending on enzymes you can only absorb so much for any given time period). Thus, if you were to take the equivalent of 10mg's of Hydrocodone in the liquid form you would find that its onset of relief is MUCH faster, yet is significantly shorter in duration.

There are some cases of companies having batches of mismatched ratios of the Active ingredients in the medication. IE: perhaps a batch of 10,000 Watson’s were synthetically compounded with 9.4mg's of hydrocodone instead of 10mg's. Or the other way around, they somehow got by the quality testing to have a certain batch with 11.3mg's of hydrocodone rather than the 10. This is a fairly rare occurrence, and as you can tell, logically, the small differences that can occur really would not be noticeable. (As always, there can be some batches off by a somewhat significant amount, and those ARE noticed, but that is even the more rare).

The chemistry is a fairly exact science when it comes to high quantity manufacturing, but mistakes do happen whether it be human err or not.

It is my opinion that the major difference that people notice in the brands is the types of fillers and binders they choose to use rather than a sub par amount of the active ingredient.

Sorry so long, take care =)




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-/\/eofate
"Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% of how you react to it."


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eelrm
Veteran


Reged: 12/30/02
Posts: 656
Loc: East Coast
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: neofate]
      #134261 - 02/04/04 08:39 PM

In my professional opinion Qualitest/Vintage 10/325's are the worst out there. I say this from more than one experience. Every time I have received them, I am grateful when I get the Watson's again, and definetly notice a HUGE difference. I do not notice much of a difference between the Mallies/Ables/Norco "brand"/or Watson's.

I have heard the binder/filler explanation before, but I think it's deeper than that on this particular brand. About six months ago there was a push here from some member's who wanted to have them "tested" because they are so weak.

I'm glad they work for you Opie

I Vintage. Is St Pete's still sending them?


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NJ_Hoss
Enthusiast


Reged: 10/29/03
Posts: 263
Loc: USA
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: neofate]
      #134271 - 02/04/04 09:22 PM

Quote:

It is my opinion that the major difference that people notice in the brands is the types of fillers and binders they choose to use rather than a sub par amount of the active ingredient.




That is also correct. Individuality and the varying properties and physiologic processing of the inactive ingredients account for the variance. Hydrocodone is simply Hydrocodone.

Manufacturing standards do provide a "tolerance window" within which a statistical percentage of the manufactured output must comply. This does not altogether prohibit the possibility, or even the existsence, of variant batches for any one of a number of reasons, but they are by far the exception and not the rule, and the result is an overall therapeutic uniformity that remains excellently consistent.

Regarding the inactive ingredients, manufacturers are free to choose thier own fillers and binders, provided a statistically acceptable number of the resulting output ultimately resides within a similar "tolerance window" of efficacy to be considered "substitutable", which includes potency, absorption, half-life, etc. These differences may be noticeable to those intimately familiar with individual products' properties, but this is more on the order of appreciating the difference between varying vintages of wine than wine-in-a-box from Chateau Lefite, and are far more esoterically significant than therapeutically so.

It's also important to remember that environmental physiologic influences can vary the perceived attributes of the same manufacturer's medication. Duration since last meal, type of last meal, current pain status, and other metabolic considerations can make two identical pills seem to have different properties at different times as well.


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Opie_Yates
Old Hand


Reged: 08/11/03
Posts: 470
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: eelrm]
      #134385 - 02/05/04 08:02 AM

Quote:

In my professional opinion Qualitest/Vintage 10/325's are the worst out there. I say this from more than one experience. Every time I have received them, I am grateful when I get the Watson's again, and definetly notice a HUGE difference. I do not notice much of a difference between the Mallies/Ables/Norco "brand"/or Watson's.

I have heard the binder/filler explanation before, but I think it's deeper than that on this particular brand. About six months ago there was a push here from some member's who wanted to have them "tested" because they are so weak.

I'm glad they work for you Opie

I Vintage. Is St Pete's still sending them?




Thanks eel...I've only been on hydro for a few years and only take enough combined with Skelaxin to keep the pain at bay for work. Then it's Somas at night. But like you said, different people react in different ways to the legally required formulation variances in the generics.

--------------------
I'm not a doctor, I just play one on a message forum!


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Spectre13
Enthusiast


Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 298
Loc: ThunderHeadTippyTops
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: NJ_Hoss]
      #134444 - 02/05/04 10:39 AM

Quote:

Duration since last meal, type of last meal, current pain status, and other metabolic considerations can make two identical pills seem to have different properties at different times as well.




You mean like the greater plasma concentration one gets when taking oxycodone with a meal high in fat?

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When you think it's beyond your comprehension, it probably just precedes it.


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Iceybreaker
Stranger


Reged: 10/13/03
Posts: 1
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: turcica]
      #135418 - 02/08/04 06:25 PM

Vintage Pharma. has a plant in Charlotte NC that manufactures hydros. Ive been inside on several occasions making routine sales calls. They had an account with the company I worked for. VERY nice place to visit!!! As far as quality goes Ive never had any probs. As long as they are 10s Im satisfied....Ill take Watsons or Vintage.

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Firefairy
Member


Reged: 11/26/03
Posts: 147
Loc: Mississippi
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: Iceybreaker]
      #135463 - 02/08/04 10:15 PM

I had a few Watson brand left over, just received Ables, and noticed my daughter had Vintage. After calling around, my father had some mallies. So I swapped pill for pill, (of same strength hydro/apap) and did my own not-so-scientific testing. Taking into consideration variations in empty stomache, how bad I was feeling, or how bad the weather was, here was what I noticed:

Vintage and Ables did not seem to kick in as fast, but did seem to last longer. If I took them right before I went to work it frustrated me for the first hour or so, I was still aching and in pain and it was hard to act upbeat when my day was starting. On the upside, once I felt better I found myself going for quite awhile without that second dose.

Watson's and Mallies seemed to kick in faster and were easier to break in half. They hit after about a half hour but I found myself needing that second dose earlier in the day. I have restless leg syndrome at night and will break a pill in half if it is preventing me from sleeping. The Watson's and the Mallies seemed to work much better for this, I assume because of the fillers being more powdery and easily disolved.

That being said, I did not notice any difference between Vintage vs Ables nor Watsons vs Mallies. I did however, notice the difference in having them, and having to rely on OTC. So I will be happy with whatever I am sent that lets me move without pain, play with my kids, smile at customers, sleep at night, and, umm, play with my husband.


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Spectre13
Enthusiast


Reged: 12/10/03
Posts: 298
Loc: ThunderHeadTippyTops
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: Firefairy]
      #135495 - 02/09/04 02:02 AM

Quote:

The Watson's and the Mallies seemed to work much better for this, I assume because of the fillers being more powdery and easily disolved.




It's hard to tell what's going on. Normally, the Watson will disintegrate more rapidly than the Mallinckrodt in water, so you tend to hear reports of Mallinckrodt initiating slower than Watsons in actual use. It could be that there are other latent factors involved depending upon the person.

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When you think it's beyond your comprehension, it probably just precedes it.


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Sky_Queen
Fly Girl


Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 1962
Loc: Texas
Re: Diff. between Vintage Brand & Watson???? [Re: Firefairy]
      #135501 - 02/09/04 02:20 AM

Firefairy - I have that nasty RLS as well - have you tried Clonazepam at night for that? I find it helps me sleep and takes care of that "wandering leg" problem.

I've never tried any brand other than Watson - although I did have some Lorcet one time that was UAD - not sure what brand that is but they worked very well - just too much APAP.



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