bellabail
Stranger
Reged: 11/19/03
Posts: 5
Loc: west
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Hi everybody, I have been observing for a while. I just wanted to say thanks for the great info! I just completed my first OP purchase. I ordered consult on 12/10, Doc Called on 12/11, Fed ex just brought me my meds 12/12! Smooth! I do have one question though, what is the difference in Norco and Watson, are they the same thing just different name? Thanks again everybody for putting your experiences on the board.
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zeuzjuz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/16/01
Posts: 1155
Loc: the milky way
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Watson is the company that makes Norco.
Norco is Hydro/APAP 10/325.
Watson also makes generics - if you get the generics they will be stamped 'WATSON'
If you get the name brand they will be stamped 'Norco'
Kinda confusing, but is true - Watson maked both the name brand Norco and their own version of generic Norco.
Of course many other companies make Norco too.
Watson is a manufacturing co.'s name. Norco refers to the strength of the pill, which is 10/325. Just as Vicodin referes to 5/500. And Lortab refers to 7.5/500 or 10/500. And Lorcet refers to 10/650. (First number=hydro, second number=APAP [tylenol] )
Vicodin, Lorcet, Norco these are just name brands - that are different strengths.
Watson is the manufacturer. So technically, the question which is better, 'Watson or Norco' doesn't really make sense. The question would be 'Which is better, name brand or generic' - I haven't noticed a heck of a lot of difference personally.
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//zeuzjuz
Edited by zeuzjuz (12/12/03 03:04 PM)
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bellabail
Stranger
Reged: 11/19/03
Posts: 5
Loc: west
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Wow, you answered all of my questions! Thank you so much for being prompt! Have a great weekend!
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Fiver
Member
Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 104
Loc: Michigan
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Does anyone remember "Anexsia?" It was hydrocodone/APAP but the ones I had were 7.5/something. I don't remember if they also came in the "5" flavor. The last time I had Anexsia was back around 1996, though.
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zeuzjuz
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 12/16/01
Posts: 1155
Loc: the milky way
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Don't remember that but wanted to add an interesting little 'tidbit' that I read about the name 'Norco' the other day online.. The brand-name Norco, actually comes from the name of a town that was next to the town where they first developed/patented Norco.... The city was 'North Corona' so Norco is actually short/abbreviation for North Corona, a town...... I always thought the name Norco had to be related to the root-word 'narc' as in Narcotic Pain Reliever. It has nothing to do with it, merely a coincidence. Yep, Norco is named after the town of North Corona (I forgot which state that is in, but I think Cali??) Just a weird/intersting sidenote.
Fiver, I don't remember Anexsia but I guess it was before my time I have only been on pain meds daily since 2000..... Was it a popular med?
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//zeuzjuz
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owmyback
Member
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 108
Loc: PENNSYLVANIA
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Anexsia came in 5/500 and 7.5/650.
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owmyback
Member
Reged: 11/05/03
Posts: 108
Loc: PENNSYLVANIA
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Quote:
Does anyone remember "Anexsia?" It was hydrocodone/APAP but the ones I had were 7.5/something. I don't remember if they also came in the "5" flavor. The last time I had Anexsia was back around 1996, though.
Anexsia came in 5/500 and 7.5/650.
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buffett33912
Stranger
Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 5
Loc: Southwest Florida
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I have had many good experiences with NWW, except I ordered Norco 10/325, as I am concerned about the APAP consumption. During the phone consultation, I tried to make it clear that I really prefer the 10/325 in order to minimize the exposure to the liver damaging APAP. My order came in on a timely fashion, but it was the 7.5/500. I can work around it, and have attempted the "cold water extraction," and it didn't seem to work like I had hoped. I am a beer drinker, not excessively, but I think I may be on the borderline, in terms of liver considerations. I have been trying to lay off on the hydro because of this consideration. On "non work nights (weekends)", I generally use about 45 mg of hydro, which also contains 3,000 mg of APAP.
Am I going about this in a relatively safe way?
P.S. I have lower back pains running down my leg (which appears to be a herniated disc.)
and an MRI is sheduled for next week.
Sorry for the rambling, but my main purpose is to find out just how much alcohol is excessive when using hydrocodone for really bad pain relief in relation to health of the liver.
Thanks for any advice,
Tom
Does anyone know what a dangerous dosage of APAP would be with someone consuming perhaps 3-5 beers per evening, when you require about 45mg of hydro to achieve significant pain relief?
It's obviously not a good combination, but I would like to know the parameters with which I can seek pain relief and have a few beers without haing too much inaccurate information about liver damage.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Please PM me if you have specific knowledge that I may be looking at this all wrong...
Fort Myers, Florida
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lovepink
Goddess
Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1476
Loc: NYC Metro Area
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A daily dose of 3000 mg. over anything but a short period of time could be detrimental to your liver - add the alcohol & you could have a problem NOW unfortunately.
The daily ceiling dose for apap is 4000 mg. although many healthcare professionals feel 2000 mg. is more appropriate. The regular/semi-frequent simultaneous consumption of alcohol & even 500 mg. of apap is asking for trouble. If you check the warnings on a bottle of OTC Tylenol it very specifically warns against combining Tylenol with beer.
I'm not lecturing - I just want you to be careful.
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Lovepink
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buffett33912
Stranger
Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 5
Loc: Southwest Florida
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thanks for your concern. I am really trying to find a delicate balance here to maintain my health. I guess I believe that anything in moderation should be relatively safe behavior. And I definitely am not using the hydro daily, mostly ecause of my concerns with the liver safety. I really appreciate all the helpful feedback from all of you. The more education concerning safety, the better. God bless this board.
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TRS
Journeyman
Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 56
Loc: California
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Zeuzjuz,
You're right, the state is Calif. In fact, I live pretty close by so I see the factory a lot...says Watson across the building. I wonder if there is any theft within the company? Shoot, with all the stealing that Fedx & UPS have
been doing, what could be going on at the actual factory? Thanks for the "fun facts"...I thought about posting this awhile back once I saw the building but never did!
Have a good Sunday, TRS
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2muchpain
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/07/03
Posts: 274
Loc: USA
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That's good to know for future vacations. Maybe a group of us DBer's could get together a have a 'class photograph'
taken in front of the building. 
They don't offer tours, do they?
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TRS
Journeyman
Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 56
Loc: California
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Hee Hee!!!!
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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My advice really is to take NAC. Do a search here if you need more info, but it's n-acetyl-l-cysteine, and can be purchased at GNC and health food stores. That's what you'd be given in the ER if you OD'd on acetaminophen, the pharmaceutical brand name is Mucomist, but it does have a preventive action against liver damage. The way it works is complicated, but I've explained it here in other posts.
3-5 drinks is kinda pushing it. But people do what they want anyway, it's as simple as that, and if you are going to be damaging your liver with two different drugs, you absolutely must get on NAC.
It will cut down on the damage, but it is by no means a panacea. Really this is something to discuss with a third party doctor (not your PCP, not the OP doctor, a third doctor who is maybe from Urgent Care or something who is not going to jeopardize anything).
-yawkaw
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Fiver
Member
Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 104
Loc: Michigan
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Yawk proves again that he knows a lot about a lot, and he teaches us with grace and humor every time. Thank you, Yawkaw, and I say that sincerely. 
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qwrt
Journeyman
Reged: 12/09/03
Posts: 60
Loc: USA
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FYI you may want to check out Milk Thistle as well (Check your local health food store)
Milk thistle has been used for liver problems for over 2,000 years. In 1960, German scientists identified a group of active ingredients collectively called silymarin (silybinin, isosilybinin, silychristin, and silydianin, etc) from milk thistle, mainly from the seeds. Silymarin in the milk thistle extracts is known to protect the liver by strengthening the outer membranes of liver cells, which prevents toxins from entering the cells. Silymarin also stimulates protein synthesis in liver cells, which helps to regenerate and repair the liver. Milk thistle silymarin compounds are also strong antioxidants, and have been shown to reduce damage to liver cells caused by repeated use of some prescription drugs, and may protect liver from alcohol (ethanolic damage), cirrhosis, hepatitis, and pollutants.
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valle
Stranger
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 24
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Hey yakcaw,
I was interested in reading your previous post about the mucomyst but was unable to find it. I always thought that mucomyst was used for renal clearance if ones creatinine level is elevated. I had no idea that it had any effects on the liver. In addition, if bought somewhere such as GNC was form does it come in?? Pills, liquid ect..?? If you have the link to your previous post it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Happy Holidays
Nic
Oh ps.......I have also heard alot of people mention the milk thistle and am curious as to how that works also. I feel as if I should start looking into taking some type of supplements as my apap consumption is pretty high.
Take Care All!!
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_medial_1
Newbie
Reged: 11/02/03
Posts: 40
Loc: North coast
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Their is also a product called liveraid..With a combination of amino acids ,vitamin B12 and phospholipids. It claims to cleanse the liver of impurities and support liver function..The drawback is they say to take six a day and the stuff is not cheap
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THINK..before you speak
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yawkaw3
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 03/22/03
Posts: 1193
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I can't find my own post either, so I'll explain it here.
Mucomyst and Mucosil are the pharmaceutical brand name for n-acetyl-l-cysteine. The drug has a variety of uses, the two popular ones being treating APAP overdose and as a mucloytic (treating conditions with excessive mucous). As you mentioned, it's also useful as a "thrown into the mix" drug for acute renal failure.
Here's how it works: When you take acetaminophen, there is a toxic metabolite formed called NAPQI. NAPQI is what is actually harmful to your liver. In normals doses of APAP, this is no problem, as your liver has plenty of glutathione to bind to the NAPQI and prevent it from doing too much damage. But when you take too much APAP, there is not enough glutathione to bind to all that NAPQI and liver cells start getting damaged. If you have NAC in you, the NAC will do several things. First, it can take the place of glutathione to bind to NAPQI. It also stimulates your own production of glutathione. And for reasons we don't quite understand, it makes your own newly produced glutathione more effective. That is a dramatically simplified explanation, but that's a good overview.
At GNC and health food stores, it's available in pill form. GNC also makes a product that has 600 mg of NAC and (I believe) 100 mg of glutathione, so either one is good. If you're not near a GNC, a heath food store will have it as well. Twinlab is a good brand to buy, but there is another one that has a white bottle and is like KAL or something, that's good too.
It's not expensive either, I buy 60 pills for $7-8 at my local health food joint.
NAC not only works for treating acute overdose, it also has a preventive effect on liver damage from chronic APAP consumption. But it is by no means a license to start abusing pills and overdo the APAP every single day. It can only go so far. But whatever you do, if you will be taking APAP every day, it is a smart addition to your regimen.
Milk thistle is not on par with NAC in terms of usefulness, but it certainly will only help if you add that as well. We're not quite sure how it works, but the thinking is that it stimulates bile movement through the liver/gallbladder, and that would logically prevent bile-induced liver damage. At least that's my understanding of, we never learned much about milk thistle's pharmacology- that's probably something you'd be more likely to learn in an osteopathic med school, I go to an allopathic one.
NAC really does work to prevent liver damage, I've been taking myself for years and I have never had a liver profile that didn't turn up within normal ranges.
Good luck, and happy holidays to you as well.
-yawkaw
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Hey Guys:
TRS said: "Shoot, with all the stealing that Fedx & UPS have been doing, what could be going on at the actual factory?"
I've read something to that effect (about FedEx/UPS stealing) on another thread. This is scary! Is this a common occurrence? Can anyone share your experiences? What happens with regard to the OP? I don't guess they're nice enough to reship, are they?
Any info/anecdotes anyone has would be appreciated.
Peace
NS
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