gottadoit
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/21/03
Posts: 269
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I have long been a "lurker" on db and a bunch of other forums. You guys seem to have the most information and actually seem to care about each other so I decided to "jump in" and register. I hope that you will be able and willing to help me.
I desperately need to take a "hydro holiday". After taking a long hard look at how I'm using this meds (I do have chronic pain), I have come to the realization that I am taking way too much to justify and need to take a break to back up the tolerance that I have built up. I tried to go "cold turkey" last weekend and it was impossible. I literally did not have the energy to drag myself into the bathroom in order to have the runs. Not to mention feeling like I was going to crawl right out of my own skin. It was a horror show.
A friend of mine recently went thru hydro detox using the suboxone/subutex program and had perfect results. Absolutely NO physical wds at all. He stayed on the suboxone for only two weeks and then came off. He has been med free for 4 weeks and says that he has never felt better. He was taking between 20 and 30 10mg hydro daily and was prescribed 2mg suboxone tabs. By the time he was on day 5, he was considered "maintenance dosage" and only took a two mg. tab three times a day.
I did alot of reading here and online and learned about temgesic. I ordered it and have it ready to use, but the problem is, I don't know how to use it. Temgesic is only 0.2 mg tabs. If suboxone is 2mg - that would equal TEN of the temgesics!!!! That is obviously not right. I know from my reading that buprenex is given IM in 0.3mg doses so I just can't figure this out. I know that IM is different than sublingual - I was just using this a basis for comparison.
I'm sorry for the length of this, I'm just very confused and desperatly in need of some advice from someone who has used the temgesic successfully. I know that no one at db can give "medical advice", but if anyone could describe their personal experience I would really appreciate it. Thank you for your time!
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Beetlenut
Threadhead
Reged: 09/09/02
Posts: 764
Loc: Colorado
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Good question.
I think you may find your answer here. I just ran across a fabulous resource, not just for the dosing of temgesic, but for all drugs. Lists the shelf life of a drug, as well, which can come in very handy. It's an Electronic Medicine Compendium (essentially, a free electronic PDR (British) at:
emc.vhn.net
I'd be really interested in knowing how it goes for you. Please feel free to pm me.
BTW - Welcome! 
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ohd_37
Board Addict
Reged: 08/05/03
Posts: 399
Loc: up north, yankee all the way
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not too be a wish guy but maybe you should call a dr. that can prescribe this type of med. and poke around and see if maybe he/she can help,just my thought,i have called and ask about other matters about meds.. good luck.
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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The problem with Temgesic is that it is available in only .2mg SL, you would need LOTS of it--perhaps something like 10-20 of them every day to curb the withdrawal depending on how much hydro you are taking.
This would get hideously expensive as they have to come from an IOP and would take about 3 weeks to arrive once ordered, IF they get past Customs. And right now only a select few places have them available. There's a thread it the "who has it/how much" section that I just updated (and others contributed to.)
Don't forget that buprenorphine is also addicting in its own right and may not make you tolerance level any better for the hydro. IMO, I would suggest this product only for people looking to get off of opiates or who are taking a LONG holiday.
I think you would have better luck titrating down your hydro dosage (lots and lots of threads on this subject).
There just is no miracle cure for withdrawal. If one was out there, I would have done it years ago!
Best of luck!!!!
night_shade
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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plotinus
Enthusiast
Reged: 09/16/03
Posts: 277
Loc: California
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Quote:
I think you would have better luck titrating down your hydro dosage (lots and lots of threads on this subject).
I agree with you night_shade. IMO temgesic is very sedating - not an up PK like hydro. And I believe the IM buprenex used for detox was more than 0.3mg.
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"War on ...." is the wrong metaphor!
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painster
Stranger
Reged: 08/09/03
Posts: 12
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This is my experience with buprenorphine as prescribed by a doctor in a clinical setting some time ago. I'm an addiction counselor now and continuing my education in psychology and addiction studies. I am not a doctor nor do I profess to know all the answers. You asked for advice from someone that's been through it and that' me in spades.
Another way to go is a withdrawl recipe called "Thomas Detox Recipe".. Go to "search" on this board and search "Day-to-day diary of Hydro w/d". I'm not necessarily an advocate but it's an option. Well, here goes with what I've gone through:
Assuming you haven't had your question answered, this is the regimen used at my facility:
Stop taking Hydro right away.
You should have at least 20-30 Temgesics available.
You should have at least 20-30 benzodiazipines (Ativan preferably 2 mg) or any other if not available.
Have imodium available.
Above all, HAVE A FRIEND OR OTHER SUPPORT SYSTEM IN PLACE.
Unless I missed it, you did not admit your intake of hydro. I'll give you advice based on what your friend took.
I'm assuming you have .2 mg Temgesics.
Do the following:
Day 1 thru 3
Take 1 Temgesic sublingualy (under the tongue and let disolve slowly) TAKE ONLY ONE TABLET EVERY 8 HOURS. Believe it or not, it works. It's a miracle drug as far as I'm concerned and it totally blocks the impulses to take other opiates. I'm sure you're aware it's an opiate also, but it doesn't have anywhere near the potential of abuse that hydro has.
Take the Ativan or other benzo every 4 hrs as needed for anxiety (cramps, crawling out of your skin etc.)
Use the Imodium as needed for the diarrhea.
Each day take a multivitamin and vitamin B-6, thiamine, or take a compilation dose called B150.
Drink lots of liquids and eat 3 meal a day, including all the food groups. You won't feel like doing it so that's why help is required.
Take Trazadone 100mg at night for sleep. As a substitute, you can take one to three 3mg tablets of Melatonin. Melatonin is a natural substance and you can take it even after your w/d regimen is over. I still take 1 3mg tablet per night.
Day 4-6
Drop down to 1 Temgesic every 12 hours.
You can still take the benzos as needed but attempt to cut back to 1 tablet every 6-12 hours as needed.
Day 7-10
Take 1 Temgesic upon rising and take stop taking the benzos.
You should do stretching excercises daily and go for walks as often as possible. Excercise is an essential element to recovery.
You should be feeling great by now and after day 10, stop taking the Temgesic altogether.
Now is the critical time to avoid relapse. I don't want to preach, but AA or any support group is essential to continued sobriety.
God bless
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elo2003
Stranger
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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I'm also trying to kick hydros altogether--I take about 40 grams a day. (initially, I was prescribed Vicodin for migraines, but I have been using them to kill emotional pain which is NOT a good thing) I told my Dr. I was experiencing w/d from Vicodin (which I am when I quit taking them and he prescribed me darvocet 100's and some xanax. Is it better to take bupophrine (sp?) and detox that way? I plan on starting my detox tomorrow and I'm very scared of the w/d symptoms I'll experience. Thanking you in advance for your advice.
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elo2003
Stranger
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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sorry to post again, but I was prescribed darvocet 100's and I can't find the difference between a d100 & a regular darvocet. Is a darvocet 100 stronger or weaker than a regular darvocet--or is there any difference? How should I taper down with darvocets?(ie: ratio to the hydro I was taking?) Also, how much xanax should I be taking? I was prescribed the .5 xanax. Thanks...dr. didn't give me any instructions on how to do this.
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gottadoit
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/21/03
Posts: 269
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Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. I also got a couple of pms on the subject and I hope that more people will write in with their personal experience on this. I did a search on db for "hydro holidays" and related topics and found a great deal of information. It definately seems that I am not alone in this. The titrating schedule definately seems like a good idea, and I do plan on starting that tomorrow. I just have to make myself stay on schedule. It's just so difficult not to take "one more" when I feel like I have ice picks sticking into my hips, have no energy and in general feel like hell. Weaning down takes discipline and complete self control. I have really psyched myself up for this over the past couple of weeks and really WANT to do it. I just hope that I CAN do it!
Painstar, you wrote that the temgesic was prescribed in a detox setting. Did you mean the suboxone version or actually the temgesic? Because there is definately a big difference in the dosage. Suboxone is available in 2mg and 8 mg sublingual tabs and temgesic is only 0.2mgs. Thank you very much for that schedule. It seems very helpful and I really am going to do this soon. I have built up a huge tolerance that has to be broken down.
Thank you to the member that posted the website with the information. I plan on checking that out after making this post. It sounds exactly like what I have been searching for.
Elo, I'm not a doctor, but I don't think there is a difference in the darvocet that you asked about. They are both synthetic opiates. Personally, I find them to be completely useless. An advil or excedrin does more for me than a darvocet - honestly. If you are taking hydro I don't know that the darvocet will have any effect on you whatsoever. It may help for wds, I don't know. I do know that in all the threads that I've read on this forum and others that temgesic/buprenex/suboxone/etc. are the "drugs of choice" for wd. Good luck to you, I completely understand what you are going thru and I wish you the strength and courage to get thru the next few weeks.
I just want to say Thank You once again. I hope that more people will tell me how they 've used this med (successfully!! - I hope!).
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elo2003
Stranger
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Bay Area, CA
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gottadoit,
Thanks for your advice...have also put in a couple of phone calls to docs that prescribe suboxone (sp?) in my area just in case the darvocet doesn't help with w/d...I've taken darvocet a long time ago, just don't know how it will help with hydro w/d...also planning on attending some na meetings to help me...
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kittykatbone
Member
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 150
Loc: City of lost Angels
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since there is no perfect way to go thru w/d's w/o feeling like a turd in a whirlpool, i would say give the darvocets a shot. darvocet (propoxephene) is less potent than hydro, but better than nothing when trying to ween off.
personally i am planning a HUGE (like ~ maybe for good???) holiday using the .2sl Temgesics + xanax (or an eqivalent). that will be Thanksgiving week.
NA only works "if you work it", as they say. you definately need some type of support system after the physical w/d's are over ~ staying off is harder than getting off of them, in my opinion.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!! keep us posted!
louis 
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some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug
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DaggerEyez
Journeyman
Reged: 10/18/02
Posts: 50
Loc: USA
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I do not think you were taking 40 grams of hydrocodone a day. Maybe 40mgs?
There is Darvocet N100 and Darvocet N50.
If your bottle says propoxyphene napsylate 100mg/ APAP 650mg you have Darvocet N 100.
If you begin to feel WD take a Darvocet and perhaps a xanax. Just use them as you feel withdrawal.
You probably don't want to exceed more than 6 Darvocet a day.
Good Luck!
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night_shade
Threadhead
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 907
Loc: The State of Hockey
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As the original post was titled "temgesic for hydro wds..." I'm sticking to that...
Anyway, buprenorhine is available in the United States as Subutex/Buprenex (buprenorphine only) and Suboxone (this is the agonist/antagonist variety)...Temgesic is available internationally only.
I assume you mean you are using 40 MG (not 40 Grams, as that is equivalent to 40,000 Mg) of hydro a day. Based on that figure, 3.2 MGs/day of buprenorphine would be the equivalent to 40mgs of hydro. As the Temgesic is available in only 0.2mg sublingual tablets, you'd need to take 16 of them each day. This would get awfully expensive as, like I said in an earlier post, these would have to come from an IOP.
For reference, buprenorphine for opiate detox or maintenance cannot be prescribed by just any doctor. They have to have a DEA waiver completed. Even if you could wheedle a script from your doctor, the pharmacist would catch on and probably report it as buprenorphine is not widely used for pain.
Again, I stress that even going this route will only delay the inevitable withdrawal. There just is no easy way through this. Pray each day that you aren't trying to come off methadone!!!!
About the Darvocet, it MAY reduce withdrawal symptoms. But the point that you won't get a euphoric feeling from it doesn't mean it isn't helping the withdrawal. So many people judge a drug's effectiveness by whether they get a buzz from it or not. I'm not saying this true in your case, but try to be objective about the withdrawal symptoms.
As I am in this predicament right now (but with methadone) I have been extremely interested in anything that will help the withdrawal symptoms. Sometimes standing or sitting exacerbates the bone pain. That is my chief problem (as well as hypertension) and I have taken two YEARS to titrate down from 100mgs...
Take your time, go slowly, use HYDRO to titrate downward. There is no way to perfectly comfortable while withdrawing. Expect discomfort, but you don't have to do it so quickly that it makes you non-functional. If your goal is to stop hydro altogether, do it VERY slowly. Nothing will get somebody back on the pain meds faster than trying to get off too quickly.
Best of luck...I do feel for you!
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Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
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gottadoit
Enthusiast
Reged: 10/21/03
Posts: 269
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Thanks again for all of the feedback. I started weaning myself down today. I plan on continuing that route until Monday and then I will start the temgesics. I've gotten a couple of pms on this and all say that the temgesics will help. I know that there is no "miracle" for wds, but as long as I can function, I'll be ok. It's the total lethargy that has got to me in the past and set me right back to my original medication schedule. I truly believe if I can get through the exhaustion, I'll be able to stay focused and take this much needed holiday.
Thanks again to all.
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kittykatbone
Member
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 150
Loc: City of lost Angels
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if you live on the East Coast, you may want to invest in a 100ct bottle of OTC ephedrine (
here on the West Coast it is illegal to buy, sell, or import, cuz it can be used as a base ingredient in methamphetamine labs (very popular on the west coast for some reason). the stuff is called Two-Way, or known as 'white crosses' on the street. other brand names are also available ~ 25mg ephedrine hydrochloride is the active ingredient. it may also contain 200 or 400mg Guaifenesin.
HOWEVER ~ too many ephies can cause you problems too (depression, etc), as with any kind of upper. i find them useful on those days when i have no energy. other people may disagree with this method, but i know when i feel like sh*t i still need to get my carcass to work & be productive ~ it helps in a pinch & in moderation. hope this helps.
sincerely ~ louis
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some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug
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sbranske
Stranger
Reged: 08/26/03
Posts: 5
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My pain specialist helped me get off oxy in 2 weeks with virtually no withdrawl problems. Cut one pill out per day until you are down to none. I guess in your case it would take longer as it sounds like you are taking more pills per day than I was. I might also add that I was only getting off the oxy, not the norco. But, he said the same proceducre for that would work, as if it would ever come to the point that "chronic" doesn't exist anymore. Too bad there's no way to wean off PAIN!.
Stacey
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kittykatbone
Member
Reged: 06/20/03
Posts: 150
Loc: City of lost Angels
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please dont compare apples & oranges. Oxy is even harder to kick than Hydro ~ & tapering sux no matter how you work it. 
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some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug
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plotinus
Enthusiast
Reged: 09/16/03
Posts: 277
Loc: California
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Quote:
Thanks again for all of the feedback. I started weaning myself down today. I plan on continuing that route until Monday and then I will start the temgesics. I've gotten a couple of pms on this and all say that the temgesics will help. I know that there is no "miracle" for wds, but as long as I can function, I'll be ok. It's the total lethargy that has got to me in the past and set me right back to my original medication schedule. I truly believe if I can get through the exhaustion, I'll be able to stay focused and take this much needed holiday.
Thanks again to all.
Two of the 0.2mg SL's seemed pretty close to 10mg of hydro, atleast 7.5mg. However, I found temgesic extremely sedating. Hopefully your experience is not like mine, if exhaustion is already a problem for you. I think a slow taper on the original *codone is best. 10-20 mg of ritalin will really help with the mood and exhaustion, if you have some available -- borrow some from the ADHD neighbor kid
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"War on ...." is the wrong metaphor!
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